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  1. #151
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    Noting to say that a Javelin could not be placed on top anything, e.g. like the French Army VBLs 'cars' and the infantry Milan missile launcher plonked on top.

    It may have been mentioned here before, that the Canadian Army previously had Mowag Piranhas 1s, the lighter 6x6 vehicles, with Scorpion turrets with the 76mm gun (short barrel gun) ...named the ‘Cougar’ - don’t know if was successful in its time or not – and I think may have been a retrofit.

    Also, I think I saw somewhere that the 120mm mortar ammunition for the NEMO and AMOS, is unfortunately not interchangeable with normal towed 120mm mortars.

  2. #152
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    If future army Mowags were armed with a ‘big gun’ and intended primarily for infantry fire support, and not anti-armour, then maybe just a low-pressure 90mm gun (or similar) would do all round, e.g. like the Cockerill III (on some armies APCs), or AML90 type gun (e.g. South African Ratel 90 APC), so not NATO type – but common. I’m not particularly suggesting old stuff be re-used here.

    Or the high pressure version from the ERC90, maybe taken off the French, if they retire them soon.

    If Italian Centauro cast-offs were to be looked at, than maybe they could be compared to South African Rooikats as well.

    Last and perhaps least, there was a short run of Mowag 111s, of a 10x10 wheeled version!

  3. #153
    Lieutenant X-RayOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhingeNot View Post
    Also, I think I saw somewhere that the 120mm mortar ammunition for the NEMO and AMOS, is unfortunately not interchangeable with normal towed 120mm mortars.
    If you go the route of mobile 120mm for arty then, most reasonable solution is to replace hulled versions like for like for the towed ones. Granted an expense initially but increasing capability and mobility massively (particularly for combined arms ops). One vehicle, as opposed to x amount now, fleet commonality for repairs, spares, etc.
    Also one type of ammo instead of multiple for multiple types of mortars.
    Introducing a new type and retaining the current just makes the current obsolete to an extent but increases logs and training chains having both.
    Last edited by X-RayOne; 28th January 2020 at 11:51.
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  4. #154
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    We already have this with 40mm grenades. The AGL fires different ammo to the 40mm rifle grenade launcher. They are not interchangeable.
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  5. #155
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    The 120mm used by the rifled mortar used by France and the USMC is not interchangeable. The fin stabilised stuff should be interchangeable between the RUAG and the NEMO. Wide open to correction on this one.

    On an interesting side note, the Patria AMV as used by the Polish, called the Rosomak (wolverine) has a variant with the NEMO system installed. The Rosomak RAK is the designation for it. While the Rosomak is bigger than the Mowag just going on the specs, both mount the same OTO Melara turret, so there's that commonality when it comes to mounting turrets if the DF were to look at a NEMO.
    Last edited by Captain Edmund Blackadder; 28th January 2020 at 13:35.
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  6. #156
    Lieutenant X-RayOne's Avatar
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    Dear Santa;

    Swiss have introduced 120mm mortar Piranha3+ (Ruag Cobra 120mm).
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by X-RayOne; 28th January 2020 at 18:18.
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  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by X-RayOne View Post
    Dear Santa;

    Swiss have introduced 120mm mortar Piranha3+ (Ruag Cobra 120mm).
    The variant that the DF use for as a mobile workshops was designed as a mortar vehicle

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  9. #158
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    If money becomes available for more Mowags it needs to be spent on what's actually needed, APC and ambulance variants. 120mm SPG and 105mm FSV variants would become garage queens like the MRV's.

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  11. #159
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    By the time the Mowag Midlife Upgrade is complete we will be about 2 years out from starting the planning phases of replacing the fleet.

    Go figure

  12. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasia View Post
    By the time the Mowag Midlife Upgrade is complete we will be about 2 years out from starting the planning phases of replacing the fleet.

    Go figure
    Well with the normal rate of procurement process then we'll still get good service out of the upgrade before they are replaced.

  13. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Well with the normal rate of procurement process then we'll still get good service out of the upgrade before they are replaced.
    Not really. New fleet will be in by 2030

  14. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasia View Post
    Not really. New fleet will be in by 2030
    Remind me when the EPV was meant to have been in service for example?I’d put more money on a tender going out in 2030 then actual hardware coming into service.

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  16. #163
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    ... LAV- M - 120mm mortar in a turret – 8x8 wheeled for Saudi National Guard, in service from c.2002-3, and not sure if a more recent deal for more LAVs from Canada included more of these...
    http://www.warwheels.net/LAVmINDEX.html

    and

    8x8 wheeled LAVs with low pressure/ velocity 90mm Cockerill Mk.3/ Mecar for US trials:
    http://www.warwheels.net/LAVusINDEX.html

    Famae & Cardoen made Piranha 8x8 wheeled with 90mm gun for trials, and earlier 6x6 in service(?) with Chile.
    https://tecnodefesa.com.br/exercito-...has-6x6-e-8x8/
    &
    *Army-guide.com shows an 8x8 with what looks like a small 90mm, and mentions trials in 1992 with a 90mm gun, and also Famea offering a 120mm mortar version (*Note: not sure if that site is totally ‘ok’ to link to, or to search through (warned my computer!)).

  17. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhingeNot View Post
    ... LAV- M - 120mm mortar in a turret – 8x8 wheeled for Saudi National Guard, in service from c.2002-3, and not sure if a more recent deal for more LAVs from Canada included more of these...
    http://www.warwheels.net/LAVmINDEX.html

    and

    8x8 wheeled LAVs with low pressure/ velocity 90mm Cockerill Mk.3/ Mecar for US trials:
    http://www.warwheels.net/LAVusINDEX.html

    Famae & Cardoen made Piranha 8x8 wheeled with 90mm gun for trials, and earlier 6x6 in service(?) with Chile.
    https://tecnodefesa.com.br/exercito-...has-6x6-e-8x8/
    &
    *Army-guide.com shows an 8x8 with what looks like a small 90mm, and mentions trials in 1992 with a 90mm gun, and also Famea offering a 120mm mortar version (*Note: not sure if that site is totally ‘ok’ to link to, or to search through (warned my computer!)).
    The latest Saudi deal was to include CMI 105mm turrets, not sure what the status of the deal is at present.

    However in the EU, France is phasing out both its 90mm and 105mm AFVs, the Italians are replacing their 105mm with 120mm, most likely the Spanish will follow also and the Belgian are going to get rid of their 90mm as well. The 120mm smoothbore has become the standard weapon for AT and direct fire almost all across the EU, so why would we go 90mm? It would be an orphan system.

    If and it is a massive IF the DF move to the current generation of 8x8 then the only serious option for a direct fire system is the 120mm. And now we will get the usual suspects saying ahh but not many other countries are fitting 120mm to an 8x8. Well there is a simple reason for that, when they have a deployment that would require a 120mm direct fire system they can send a Leopard II or something similar.

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  19. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Edmund Blackadder View Post
    The 120mm used by the rifled mortar used by France and the USMC is not interchangeable. The fin stabilised stuff should be interchangeable between the RUAG and the NEMO. Wide open to correction on this one.

    On an interesting side note, the Patria AMV as used by the Polish, called the Rosomak (wolverine) has a variant with the NEMO system installed. The Rosomak RAK is the designation for it. While the Rosomak is bigger than the Mowag just going on the specs, both mount the same OTO Melara turret, so there's that commonality when it comes to mounting turrets if the DF were to look at a NEMO.
    The RaK system is similar to the AMOS system, both are two man turrets the former with a single 120mm mortar and the latter with a twin. The NEMO is a single 120mm in a low profile turret with the crew inside the vehicle body. It has a much smaller turret ring than either the RaK or AMOS.

    The big advantage of all three systems over conventional vehicle mortars systems like the RUAG Cobra is that they can be used for direct fire as well as in-direct fire.

    https://www.patriagroup.com/products...systems-120-mm
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I78M2qQSqtI
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Xt2XJt1oM4

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  21. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasia View Post
    By the time the Mowag Midlife Upgrade is complete we will be about 2 years out from starting the planning phases of replacing the fleet.

    Go figure
    I know it is a long shot, but all of the sane parties are proposing to have a proper defence review this summer hopefully then we will see some movement. We know that for modern operations there are only enough Piranha for battalion of so. Even if we take all the other vehicles the DF has it would be difficult to transport everyone today, and that is without hauling supplies as well. So if we do need more vehicle we could start procurement before the Piranhas are removed from the PDF with the last tranche. Evaluation should not take long as they would only be two main contenders: MOWAG Piranha V and the Patria AMV, the Boxer is just too heavy and expensive.

  22. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasia View Post
    By the time the Mowag Midlife Upgrade is complete we will be about 2 years out from starting the planning phases of replacing the fleet.

    Go figure
    The normal rule of thumb for upgrading anything is to have the Mk 2 on the drawing board, as soon as the Mk 1 is on the QM's shelf and tell the last guy in the door, on Monday morning, to get started on the Mk3. Given that it appears to take a decade to get anything, from boots to bombs, introduced to the units, you'd need to have the Mowag replacement ordered before this lot is worn out and ready for hard targets...

  23. #168
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    https://www.flickr.com/photos/dfmaga...57714065673642

    Mowags back from UNIFIL. They look well used. I wonder how long it takes to get them serviced and back in service

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  25. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by apc View Post
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/dfmaga...57714065673642

    Mowags back from UNIFIL. They look well used. I wonder how long it takes to get them serviced and back in service
    They may be heading for the upgrade that all the others got. APCs using RWS instead of turret now. The white paint is not designed to stay on forever. It looks weathered very quickly.
    Yet another repatriation that could have been carried out by a suitably equipped naval vessel. 9 mowags = About 72LM only. Instead they have to be stripped bare, loaded aboard this cargo ship, and left to the mercy of the civilian crew until arrival. There was a time when they would be lashed onto the deck of a naval vessel, and brought home during the annual resupply mission.
    As an aside Celine is the worlds's Largest short sea RORO vessel.
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  27. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by apc View Post
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/dfmaga...57714065673642

    Mowags back from UNIFIL. They look well used. I wonder how long it takes to get them serviced and back in service
    Will we not be sending them to Kreuzlingen to get the MLU?

  28. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    There was a time when they would be lashed onto the deck of a naval vessel, and brought home during the annual resupply mission.
    1 at a time and that was slightly smaller Panhard

    It may have brought out the replacements to Lebanon as well

    It does show utility of MRV though

    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Will we not be sending them to Kreuzlingen to get the MLU?
    Yes

  29. #172
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    ...and unless you properly waterproof and protect a vehicle lashed to a deck, at the mercy of salt water, all you get is a piece of unfit junk at the far end...shipping AFVs is a bit of an art form in itself.

  30. #173
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    So how did the Mowags get from Lebanon to Zeebrugge in Belgium , the Ro/Ro vessel Celine operates from Zeebrugge to Dublin so the vehicles had to be shipped onboard another vessel to Zeebrugge and unloaded and loaded by civilian drivers . As big as the Celine is she does not accommodate drivers either .
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  31. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    ...and unless you properly waterproof and protect a vehicle lashed to a deck, at the mercy of salt water, all you get is a piece of unfit junk at the far end...shipping AFVs is a bit of an art form in itself.
    A couple of APCs arrived back in Haulbowline from Lebanon in the 80s on the deck of one of the PVs , the Customs Officers wanted to have a look inside them but the doors had been spot welded by the Army prior to departure from Lebanon to help make them more " watertight " , Customs accompanied the APCs to Collins Bks in Cork and when the doors were opened the contents of Honest Abduls gift shop were to be found inside .
    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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  33. #175
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    Had the opposite once coming back from exercise in Germany - we were told HMRC would be all over us like a rash, and anyone who was caught would face a double whammy of an interview without coffee / charge once customs had finished with them. Nobody (as far as I know) risked filling up their Ambulance with cheap NAAFI booze, and on arrival at Portsmouth Docks, no sight nor sign of Customs.
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