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  1. #126
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    So the firepower is to be a 30mm and an egg-thrower and a Javelin, which gives you coverage of about 1200 metres, while our two primary capbadges argue about who does what with what, the artillery rusts in the Curragh,except for maybe a token 120mm towed mortar on tour and the DoF declines to find the money for anything bigger, wheeled or towed? What did I leave out?

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  3. #127
    Sergeant Major EUFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    Could not see the French put up with this st1t.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zBspZdEb5Q At 1h.4min an MTB turns up.
    In 2006 they didn't:
    https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,...309378,00.html

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  5. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    In my old copy of FM3-21.31 SCBT (2003) it is true the MGS's were allocated to the Infantry Battalions but it seems now that the M1128 MGS vehicles together with the M1134 ATGM vehicles have been transferred at least in some units to the Cavalry Sqd. The SCBT's that have done this so far are those which are based around Cavalry Regiments.
    http://www.fortcarsonmountaineer.com...weapons-troop/
    This cavalry weapons troop is made up of 6 platoons, 3 with 3x M1134s and 3 with 4x M1128s. Also at least one SCBT, 2 Cav has introduced into its RSTA (ISTAR) squadron also now the up gunned M1296 Striker with the Kongsberg MCT30 turrets. The US Army at least sees the need to put much more fire power into their Cavalry units, at least in Europe as the likely opponents are more heavily armed. But as we know these same vehicles are also heavily exported and there is a good chance we could be squared off against a similar level of threat.

    Also remember the MGS was to provide Direct Fire Support while M1129 MC have 120mm mortars for indirect, and the SCBT also has their (3x 6) M777 for longer range indirect support.
    In the US Army, a Squadron is the equivalent to a Battalion, a Troop is the equivalent to a Company or a Cav Squadron here.
    They do not have 105mm or ATGM Stryker's in their recce/scout Troops.
    If you are going to make comparisons they need to be of equivalent size units.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    So the firepower is to be a 30mm and an egg-thrower and a Javelin, which gives you coverage of about 1200 metres
    The Javelin on the RWS has hit targets at ranges over 4,000m.

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  7. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    In the US Army, a Squadron is the equivalent to a Battalion, a Troop is the equivalent to a Company or a Cav Squadron here.
    They do not have 105mm or ATGM Stryker's in their recce/scout Troops.
    If you are going to make comparisons they need to be of equivalent size units.
    The SBCT Weapons Team consisting of the 105mm and ATGM Stryker's are now allocated to the Cavalry.
    This is defined in ATP 3-21.91 Para1.59:
    "1-59. The SBCT weapons troop role is to facilitate the SBCT’s maneuver by providing direct fires. Employed correctly and in synchronization with other maneuver units they facilitate the SBCT to close with the enemy; repel the enemy’s attack by fire or allow other units break contact. Within the SBCT the weapons troop is assigned to the Cavalry squadron by MTOE. In garrison the Cavalry squadron manages the home station gunnery training, maintenance, and Soldier military occupational specialty development and assignment. In operations the weapons troop assignment is ultimately determined by the SBCT commander’s orders."

  8. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    The Stryker which is the American cousin of the PIII has a 105mm fitted, the M1129 Mobile Gun System, so in theory a PIII should be capable of being fitted with the same turret system.
    Agreed, but the problem here is "in theory" it should be capable of taking a 105.

    DF have rarely, if ever, had good experiences with developmental or first models of anything. Best to stay well away from any situation where we are first customer for anything.

    My point broadly is, unless we buy Stryker or another brand, there is not a common 105 for Piranha. We can have DF but with added type to fleet. Which is more desirable, added force protection or fleet commonality?

    Further to my questions, is missiles on our RWS systems an option instead of "solid shots" for DF and / or extended ranges? A cheaper option to new turrets, hulls, types??
    Fate whispers to the warrior, "There is a storm coming"

    And the warrior whispers back "I am the storm".

  9. #131
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    Well Rhodes says our RWS on the MOWAGs will be able to take Javelin in the near future so maybe the answer is a combination within the Bde Cav Sqns and 1 ACS of:

    LTAVs (can’t remember the version the Cav have is it RWS or pintle GPMG?)
    CRVs (with combination of HMGs, AGLs and Javelins)
    MRVs (with 30mm)

    We just need more vehicles (and personnel)

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  11. #132
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    Fitted for,but not equipped with. A bitter, long running joke over on Arrse.

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  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    The SBCT Weapons Team consisting of the 105mm and ATGM Stryker's are now allocated to the Cavalry.
    This is defined in ATP 3-21.91 Para1.59:
    "1-59. The SBCT weapons troop role is to facilitate the SBCT’s maneuver by providing direct fires. Employed correctly and in synchronization with other maneuver units they facilitate the SBCT to close with the enemy; repel the enemy’s attack by fire or allow other units break contact. Within the SBCT the weapons troop is assigned to the Cavalry squadron by MTOE. In garrison the Cavalry squadron manages the home station gunnery training, maintenance, and Soldier military occupational specialty development and assignment. In operations the weapons troop assignment is ultimately determined by the SBCT commander’s orders."
    You obviously didn't read what you quoted, so I'll say it again.
    A US Army Squadron is a Battalion size unit, its no comparison to an Irish Squadron which is Company size.

    Quote Originally Posted by X-RayOne View Post
    Further to my questions, is missiles on our RWS systems an option instead of "solid shots" for DF and / or extended ranges? A cheaper option to new turrets, hulls, types??
    In the near future, all going well, all the Infantry DRWS's will be upgraded to take the Javelin. The estimated cost for this project is so low it wouldn't buy one 105mm Mowag, so will be excellent value for money when/if it's done.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Well Rhodes says our RWS on the MOWAGs will be able to take Javelin in the near future so maybe the answer is a combination within the Bde Cav Sqns and 1 ACS of:

    LTAVs (can’t remember the version the Cav have is it RWS or pintle GPMG?)
    CRVs (with combination of HMGs, AGLs and Javelins)
    MRVs (with 30mm)

    We just need more vehicles (and personnel)
    The Javelin is an Infantry weapon, not a Cav weapon. They also don't use the DRWS.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    Fitted for,but not equipped with.
    That should be the Strapline of UK Defence procurement...
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    You obviously didn't read what you quoted, so I'll say it again.
    A US Army Squadron is a Battalion size unit, its no comparison to an Irish Squadron which is Company size.
    I did read and no where in the reply did I make a comparison on size!
    The point was the that the M1128 105mm MGS are Cavalry vehicles under the control of the Cavalry Squadron. They together with the M1134 ATGW vehicles are attached to the Infantry battalions but are cavalry:

    1st In BN gets A TRP CAV SQDN with 1st PLT with 3 ATGW and 4th PLT with 4 MGS
    2nd In BN gets B TRP CAV SQDN with 2nd PLT with 3 ATGW and 5th PLT with 4 MGS
    3rd In BN gets C TRP CAV SQDN with 3rd PLT with 3 ATGW and 6PLT with 4 MGS

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    I did read and no where in the reply did I make a comparison on size!
    The point was the that the M1128 105mm MGS are Cavalry vehicles under the control of the Cavalry Squadron. They together with the M1134 ATGW vehicles are attached to the Infantry battalions but are cavalry:

    1st In BN gets A TRP CAV SQDN with 1st PLT with 3 ATGW and 4th PLT with 4 MGS
    2nd In BN gets B TRP CAV SQDN with 2nd PLT with 3 ATGW and 5th PLT with 4 MGS
    3rd In BN gets C TRP CAV SQDN with 3rd PLT with 3 ATGW and 6PLT with 4 MGS
    That US Cavalry Squadron you keep making comparisons to is a Battalion size unit.
    The US Cavalry recce/scout Troop is their equivalent to an Irish Cav Squadron, they do not have 105mm or ATGM Stryker's.
    There is also no point making comparisons to US Stryker infantry battalions either as there is only enough Mowags to deploy a number of mech infantry companies at most.
    If a mech inf coy needs fire support vehicles then it should be an integral part of that unit's structure like I said earlier and not part of a Brigade unit.
    The primary role of the Cav here is formation recce, that formation being the Brigade, it's not to be chopped up to support minor units leaving it incapable of its primary role.

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  18. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    If a mech inf coy needs fire support vehicles then it should be an integral part of that unit's structure like I said earlier and not part of a Brigade unit.
    The primary role of the Cav here is formation recce, that formation being the Brigade, it's not to be chopped up to support minor units leaving it incapable of its primary role.
    One problem apart from lack of enough cars is that there seems to be fixation on a Brigade structure.
    We will never deploy a brigade and even the US Army is moving down from Brigade sized formations to Battalion. I agree that smaller units should have more integral fire support if it is needed. It might be worth in the up-coming Review which both major parties are proposing to fundamentally look at the organisation and not just do cosmetic changes to a basic structure that has been around for 100yrs almost.

  19. #138
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    Bdes are really the smallest possible all arms formation, they can be task org’ed into Battlegroups

  20. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    You obviously didn't read what you quoted, so I'll say it again.
    A US Army Squadron is a Battalion size unit, its no comparison to an Irish Squadron which is Company size.



    In the near future, all going well, all the Infantry DRWS's will be upgraded to take the Javelin. The estimated cost for this project is so low it wouldn't buy one 105mm Mowag, so will be excellent value for money when/if it's done.



    The Javelin is an Infantry weapon, not a Cav weapon. They also don't use the DRWS.
    I really can't abide statements like this; the Javelin is for anyone who's immediate tactical need is to knock out an AFV or an entrenched or hardened enemy structure. It doesnt matter who operates it, as long as they are prepared to carry it into the battlefield, by foot or by vehicle. insisting that a portable weapon like a Javelin is solely for one user is capbadge rivalry.

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  22. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    I really can't abide statements like this; the Javelin is for anyone who's immediate tactical need is to knock out an AFV or an entrenched or hardened enemy structure. It doesnt matter who operates it, as long as they are prepared to carry it into the battlefield, by foot or by vehicle. insisting that a portable weapon like a Javelin is solely for one user is capbadge rivalry.
    Let's stick to reality, the only Corps that uses the Javelin is the Infantry.

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  24. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    Let's stick to reality, the only Corps that uses the Javelin is the Infantry.
    Is that only because up to now we did not have vehicle mounted versions?
    Is there a tactical reason why the CRV could not be retro fitted with a DRWS that also had Javelin? Being the forward element they are going to be the ones who run into the opponents armour first?

  25. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Bdes are really the smallest possible all arms formation, they can be task org’ed into Battlegroups
    A Battlegroup can be formed from any size organisation, that is the nature of a Battlegroup. It is a flexible organisation set-up to tackle and operational task. Normally arranged around a Battalion.
    Last edited by EUFighter; 26th January 2020 at 10:27.

  26. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    Let's stick to reality, the only Corps that uses the Javelin is the Infantry.
    In our military yes.

    In other militaries, not so true
    Last edited by Fantasia; 26th January 2020 at 10:48.

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  28. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    A Battlegroup can be formed from any size organisation, that is the nature of a Battlegroup. It is a flexible organisation set-up to tackle and operational task. Normally arranged around a Battalion.
    And the smallest possible organisation to do that is a bde

  29. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Is that only because up to now we did not have vehicle mounted versions?
    Is there a tactical reason why the CRV could not be retro fitted with a DRWS that also had Javelin? Being the forward element they are going to be the ones who run into the opponents armour first?
    ISR units do not directly engage the enemy, their weapons are for self-defence. The Javelin could be useful in providing dismounted overwatch for recce units operating outside of indirect fire range.

  30. #146
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    But ISR isn’t Cav’s only role

  31. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    And the smallest possible organisation to do that is a bde
    The French for a Battle-group is Demi-Brigade; so a half of a brigade.
    In the British Army a Brigade can be divided into 3-4 Battlegroup (or be a Regiment).
    The Kampfgruppe of WW2 could range in size from a company to a corps, but the most common was an Abteilung (battalion)-sized formation.

  32. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    ISR units do not directly engage the enemy, their weapons are for self-defence. The Javelin could be useful in providing dismounted overwatch for recce units operating outside of indirect fire range.
    I know it is the US again but the M3 CRV version of the Bradley carried more TOW missiles (12) than the M2 IFV version.
    Why? because they were the ones who might get in trouble with the opponent armour.

  33. #149
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    it wouldnt hurt to carry at least one Javelin per Mowag as a standard, regardless of the actual fit or function of the Mowag. Who cares if a dismounted soldier or a man in a turret fires it, as long as it gets fired at all?

  34. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    ISR units do not directly engage the enemy, their weapons are for self-defence. The Javelin could be useful in providing dismounted overwatch for recce units operating outside of indirect fire range.
    That depends on whether you are using them for offensive recce or defensive recce, like blocking forces, delaying forces even flank protection
    Last edited by Fantasia; 26th January 2020 at 21:21.

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