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  • #76
    For the imo obsession with buying 90mm versions some pause for thought

    Last edited by paul g; 11 January 2020, 15:34.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by paul g View Post
      For the imo obsession with buying 90mm versions some pause for thought

      https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-ne...-ammo-defence/
      If that's the case, we'll definitely get them.
      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by paul g View Post
        For the imo obsession with buying 90mm versions some pause for thought

        https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-ne...-ammo-defence/
        I think the most intriguing part of that story is
        . The independent military trade union ACMP...
        'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
        'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
        Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
        He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
        http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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        • #79
          Given that the AML shook bits off itself when it fired, it wouldnt be the first time we bought equipment that was technically unsafe. As for those Belgian guns, if they can fire HE, they can fire HEAT, so it may be an APFSDS round that is the issue.

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          • #80
            If they were purchased and deployed by Ireland, would it be to anywhere that the lack of APFSDS would be an issue? A 90mm HE round would cause a significant emotional event for the occupants of a technical, for example.

            Of more concern might be that there only appears to be only one manufacturer of both the gun and the ammunition, which could lead to problems if anything happened in the future to either.
            'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
            'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
            Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
            He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
            http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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            • #81
              We ended up sourcing 90mm from south africa, which was slightly different spec and dimension of the original. It didnt fit in the racks, but it fired fine. Prior to that we were getting it from the Israelis.
              If you put a tender out, people in the trade respond. Sounds like Belgium were tied to local supplier at home.
              For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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              • #82
                The Belgians do not consider this vehicle as a tank hunter as 10 years ago they knew that the 90mm APFSDS round would not defeat modern MBTs, hence why 10 years ago they cut the order from 40 to 18. The designation of Piranha IIIC DF90 gives a clue to there intended role, that is of direct fire support, so local mobile artillery.

                The M690A1 APFSDS-T round for the 90mm gun has a performance of 300mm RHA at 200m which is 60% of a 105mm round at the same range. However the main round is the M691A2 HEP-T which is Belgian for HESH. This allows the vehicle to tackle lightly armoured vehicle, bunkers and other strong points. Much better to take out something with a round costing 1% that of a nice new Javelin.

                Problems with 90mm APFSDS are not unique to the Mk8 gun, the French had a similar problem with the GIAT F4 guns which they solve a bit by replacing the muzzle break with one more like that from the AMX13. But given that Belgium has decided to replace both the Piranha, Pandur and Dingo vehicles with the VBMR Griffon and the EBRC Jaguar I do not see them trying to incorporate new capabilities such as tank killing at this stage.

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                • #83
                  How did the Belgians end up with a CMI 90mm turret on a MOWAG firing MECAR ammo?



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                  • #84
                    if 90mm is no longer a NATO standard calibre round...what are the newer, standard alternatives for mobile DF guns??
                    Questions then are:
                    1. Can said guns go on our P111's or a close variant?
                    2. Do we want Cav DF capabilities (where does it fit with current doctrine as opposed Cav had 90mm in past so must continue to have something similar)
                    3. Would mobile arty (not towed) be a better use of hulls?
                    4. would mobile arty, if possible, provide better range, capabilities, survivability of towed 105 or 120mm?

                    Discuss.....
                    An army is power. Its entire purpose is to coerce others. This power can not be used carelessly or recklessly. This power can do great harm. We have seen more suffering than any man should ever see, and if there is going to be an end to it, it must be an end that justifies the cost. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain

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                    • #85
                      I'll take a crack at question 3. The Patria Nemo is a solid contender for this. Allows a Mowag to mount a 120mm Mortar.

                      It allows for direct and indirect fire, and the 120mm Mortar round is not a small payload in explosive terms. WRT going back to the Chad model of overseas mission, a Nemo equipped vehicle in a patrol would allow for an 8km bubble of indirect fire support around the patrol, in both HE and ILLUM, using current stocks of ammunition. As an added bonus, the system can be mounted on a TEU container, as carried by DROPS, and emplaced in a camp/ fob to provide base defence out to 8km in a 6400 arc.

                      The 30mm is a worthy round in an anti armour role, the GMG is a capable anti personnel round. Add a fire support vehicle with a UAV asset to the mix and a cav troop/ armoured patrol can suddenly reach out well beyond the reach of most any SACLOS weapons used, as well as tackle more stubborn non armoured targets in the direct role.
                      Last edited by Captain Edmund Blackadder; 13 January 2020, 19:13.
                      Aut viam inveniam aut faciam.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by X-RayOne View Post
                        if 90mm is no longer a NATO standard calibre round...what are the newer, standard alternatives for mobile DF guns??
                        Questions then are:
                        1. Can said guns go on our P111's or a close variant?
                        2. Do we want Cav DF capabilities (where does it fit with current doctrine as opposed Cav had 90mm in past so must continue to have something similar)
                        3. Would mobile arty (not towed) be a better use of hulls?
                        4. would mobile arty, if possible, provide better range, capabilities, survivability of towed 105 or 120mm?

                        Discuss.....
                        The NATO standard would be 105mm or 120mm for AT duties. Seeing as these guns would likely tip over the P111 if fired (Australian experiments with 105mm led to the ASLAV overturning every time it fired at anything off centre).
                        However the Americans have managed to get the M1128 Mobile Gun System to work with a 105mm gun on a Stryker (Cousin of the P111). It works and is combat tested, but the big problem with it is that "It is not a Tank". Combat experience has shown that mobile guns are a compromise that can never compete with an actual tank.

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                        • #87
                          Bear in mind that if you go to Africa for a fight, you'll encounter predominantly Russian or Chinese kit with some legacy French stuff, as well as the now standard "technical" carrying anything you can think of, so you have to be able to survive contact with 7.62/12.7/14.5/23/37/57/75/82/90/100/105/122 and 155mm calibres, in all sorts of shapes and forms and the usual plentiful RPG and the ever present T-55 tank, BTR and BMP variants ad nauseam, as well as the sort of ATGM fielded in Syria and other sandy parts,not to mind plentiful SAMs from the basic SA-7 right up to top-tier BUK missiles, myriad mines underfoot and lots of legacy Russian aircraft as well. If the Irish go into Africa (further South than usual), I really hope they bring a mobile gun system with them, even a towed gun, not just 30mm and 12.7mm, as even the lowest toerag "militia" is sporting some very deadly kit these days. No doubt, current threat assessment is very good and probably well up to speed, but I always have a niggling feeling that our lads tend to go out underequipped in sheer firepower terms and have been lucky.

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                          • #88
                            One of the more recent africa ops exposed the weakness of the AML90 in a modern environment.
                            Unfortunately, we remain without a replacement for this type of asset.
                            Armoured recce, with enough punch to act as overwatch for other armour.
                            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                              Bear in mind that if you go to Africa for a fight, you'll encounter predominantly Russian or Chinese kit with some legacy French stuff, as well as the now standard "technical" carrying anything you can think of, so you have to be able to survive contact with 7.62/12.7/14.5/23/37/57/75/82/90/100/105/122 and 155mm calibres, in all sorts of shapes and forms and the usual plentiful RPG and the ever present T-55 tank, BTR and BMP variants ad nauseam, as well as the sort of ATGM fielded in Syria and other sandy parts,not to mind plentiful SAMs from the basic SA-7 right up to top-tier BUK missiles, myriad mines underfoot and lots of legacy Russian aircraft as well. If the Irish go into Africa (further South than usual), I really hope they bring a mobile gun system with them, even a towed gun, not just 30mm and 12.7mm, as even the lowest toerag "militia" is sporting some very deadly kit these days. No doubt, current threat assessment is very good and probably well up to speed, but I always have a niggling feeling that our lads tend to go out underequipped in sheer firepower terms and have been lucky.
                              Has happened to irish troops in the past - Battle of At-Tiri required an AML-90 to be able to take on DFF forces and Dutch TOW equipped M113s kept Israeli tanks at bay. Nothing puts manners on people like a big gun.

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                              • #90
                                Even going back to the Congo, the lads were going out with less firepower than the mercenaries they faced and guns were idle in the gun parks at home. These days in Mali, there's a lot of deadly kit being used against the local Army and the rebels are routinely winning the firefight. I'll bet there are a few nervous twitches in DFHQ every time they hear of yet another rebel attack on the Malian army.

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