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  • #76
    Re: above, in May 2019 a new EU fire fighting grouping was established, and from this year includes a fire fighting air reserve of 13 fire fighting planes, and 6 fire fighting helicopters, from 7 EU countries (2 planes and the 6 heli's from Sweden).

    It's the European Civil Protection and Humanitarian Aid Operations fleet... Set up for the 2020 fire season.

    It's part of the EU's Civil Protection mechanism.. that can be requested if a nation's fire services are overwhelmed.

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    • #77
      We seem to have gotten away with no forest or gorse fires of particular note this year, similar for the rest of Europe, though obviously the USA has been nowhere as near as lucky, and along with (mostly intentional?) fires in the Amazon, has gone some way globally to negating some of the pollution reduction benefit of the massive reduction in flight travel around the world.

      E.g. apparently in Vancouver, recommendations to close windows and stay indoors recently, due to the forest fires in the neighbouring US.

      Will we be as lucky next summer..?

      I wonder we we get to a point where (1,000 litre?) 'bambi' buckets slung off modest size helicopters won't cut it?

      Unfortunately, I'd say that if forest fires became a big problem here, that leasing fire fighting planes wouldn't be an option, as it is likely that such a summer fire season would be hitting mainland Europe even harder.

      Fire fighting planes seem to be a hitting the nail on the head type of approach, like throwing a bucket of water at a small fire, as opposed to a cup of water (from a helicopter)...

      If I read the blurb correctly for the 'Shinmaywa' us-2 as above, the usual CL-415 planes can carry circa 1,700 lites of water in each of two tanks.. e.g.. Vs. 2,000 litres? carried by Tokyo fire department Super Pumas, and for the Shinmaywa... 15,000 litres (!?) / '15 tons' if it converts some of its fuel tanks???

      Unfortunately, the Us-2 a snip at only about €70 mill...

      It looks like the US uses a fairly diverse range of aircraft for firebombing...some that would almost as headline grabbing as the us-2 would be!

      Anyway, this is a problem likely to keep getting worse, so maybe leasing fixed wing aircraft for Aer Corps/ Ireland inc. now during off season, and with other good secondary uses, might pay back in spades in future years....

      Dare I say... Could the current Aer Corps CASAs be temporarily converted for such use?
      Last edited by WhingeNot; 1 October 2020, 09:53. Reason: Clarity

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      • #78
        Originally posted by WhingeNot View Post
        We seem to have gotten away with no forest or gorse fires of particular note this year, similar for the rest of Europe, though obviously the USA has been nowhere as near as lucky, and along with (mostly intentional?) fires in the Amazon, has gone some way globally to negating some of the pollution reduction benefit of the massive reduction in flight travel around the world.

        E.g. apparently in Vancouver, recommendations to close windows and stay indoors recently, due to the forest fires in the neighbouring US.

        Will we be as lucky next summer..?

        I wonder we we get to a point where (1,000 litre?) 'bambi' buckets slung off modest size helicopters won't cut it?

        Unfortunately, I'd say that if forest fires became a big problem here, that leasing fire fighting planes wouldn't be an option, as it is likely that such a summer fire season would be hitting mainland Europe even harder.

        Fire fighting planes seem to be a hitting the nail on the head type of approach, like throwing a bucket of water at a fire, as opposed to a spoon of water (from a helicopter)...

        If I read the blurb correctly for the 'Shinmaywa' us-2 as above, the usual CL-415 planes can carry circa 1,700 lites of water in each of two tanks.. e.g.. Vs. 2,000 litres? carried by Tokyo fire department Super Pumas, and for the Shinmaywa... 15,000 litres (!?) / '15 tons' if it converts some of its fuel tanks???

        Unfortunately, the Us-2 a snip at only about €70 mill...

        It looks like the US uses a fairly diverse range of aircraft for firebombing...some that would almost as headline grabbing as the us-2 would be!

        Anyway, this is a problem likely to keep getting worse, so maybe leasing fixed wing aircraft for Aer Corps/ Ireland inc. now during off season, and with other good secondary uses, might pay back in spades in future years....

        Dare I say... Could the current Aer Corps CASAs be temporarily converted for such use?
        Didn't they try selling the 295 as a firefighter variant? Did that ever go anywhere?

        Comment


        • #79
          Once we keep raking the forest floors we'll be fine.
          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

          Comment


          • #80
            Retained firefighters wont be happy with that sort of attitude, for a lot of them its their opportunity for a big paycheck

            Comment


            • #81
              It doesn’t make sense for us to get bespoken water bombers... one trick ponies.

              It could be worth looking at getting the C295 system but it would have to return to an airstrip (even a rough one) every every flight and it would require a pumped water source.

              The AW139s (with 1200 litre Bambi bucket) are effective and arguably deliver a better return as they use a local water source (even if that is a big hole dug into the ground and filled by Fire Brigade).



              Of course we could look at more prevention, prosecution and early detection.

              Comment


              • #82
                More fire breaks and controlled burning might be considered - an ounce of prevention, etc.
                'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
                'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
                Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
                He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
                http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

                Comment


                • #83
                  Remember seeing a program once where they stated that the reason so many large scale wildfires occur in the states is that they prevent the natural occurance of fires to such an extent,that an excessive amount of leaves , twigs, branches etc build up on the forest floor over years that it causes the fires to spread further and faster. Nature itself would have allowed for small frequent fires to keep this debris in check

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                  • #84
                    yet so many States conduct controlled burns every year. It doesnt take much effort for it to get out of hand,especially if you get a very dry summer. You can deal with Irish fires with a few bambi buckets. Its beyond rare that you'd need a full time water bomber.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by apc View Post
                      Remember seeing a program once where they stated that the reason so many large scale wildfires occur in the states is that they prevent the natural occurance of fires to such an extent,that an excessive amount of leaves , twigs, branches etc build up on the forest floor over years that it causes the fires to spread further and faster. Nature itself would have allowed for small frequent fires to keep this debris in check
                      Indigenous peoples of the USA did this for centuries, until they were stopped. The fires have got worse since.
                      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        The above article for the casa 295 the refers to a trialled 'Roll on \ Roll off' system,.. so still allowing for a stated 'secondary' transport use, and the trials using a 3,500 litre tank. It also states that in operation the intention would be for two such tanks (so 7,000 litres\ 7 tonnes total).

                        That would exceed the 6 tonnes capacity of the casa 235, but a single roll on\ roll off tank of 3,500 litres would obviously exceed helicopter carried Bambi bucket's 1,000-1,200 litres...
                        (Not that I found any examples of such use of a casa 235 in a quick look).

                        As for use of water, photos from the USA often appear to show retardent being used instead, which presumably has benefit over just water, so the disadvantage of not using an aircraft that could use a local water source may not be as much of an issue?

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by WhingeNot View Post
                          The above article for the casa 295 the refers to a trialled 'Roll on \ Roll off' system,.. so still allowing for a stated 'secondary' transport use, and the trials using a 3,500 litre tank. It also states that in operation the intention would be for two such tanks (so 7,000 litres\ 7 tonnes total).

                          That would exceed the 6 tonnes capacity of the casa 235, but a single roll on\ roll off tank of 3,500 litres would obviously exceed helicopter carried Bambi bucket's 1,000-1,200 litres...
                          (Not that I found any examples of such use of a casa 235 in a quick look).

                          As for use of water, photos from the USA often appear to show retardent being used instead, which presumably has benefit over just water, so the disadvantage of not using an aircraft that could use a local water source may not be as much of an issue?
                          Except a heli could do 3 or more drops in the same time as an fixed wing.

                          Also what about the visual and ecological impact of fire retardants

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            the retardant is often much more effective as it sticks to the trees and undergrowth and smothers the fire and prevents reignition. Water, dropped at the wrong height, simply mists away or runs off or fails to suppress reignition. Retardant is also designed to break down under rainfall.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              The C130 can be equipped with a self contained modular airborne fire fighting system, the same concept as the Casas. It can be filled with either 11,000 liters of water/fire retardant and in a single pass can cover an area 18m wide and 400m in length totalling 7200 meters squared. Quite the system, it could be another role for a C130 type aircraft in addition to the already required airlift capability. It could even be offered to our European friends to help out if needed abroad.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                So we are offering an aircraft we don't have, with a system we don't need to our friends with bigger budgets?
                                For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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