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  1. #26
    Chief Casey Ryback
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    Better check with Arlene Foster first .
    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

  2. #27
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    So does the AC/Government need to talk with the UK everytime there's an overflight or could some sort of "standing arrangement" be made?
    Diplomatic clearance is required

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Diplomatic clearance is required
    But could something be worked out that it wouldn't be needed to be asked each time? Instead just have a blanket one and leave it up to NI Fire Service to make the call whenever?

  4. #29
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    Would the same paper work be required for our Rescue Helicopters to respond north.?

  5. #30
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    But could something be worked out that it wouldn't be needed to be asked each time? Instead just have a blanket one and leave it up to NI Fire Service to make the call whenever?
    Not 100% but either way diplomatic level authorisation is required

    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    Would the same paper work be required for our Rescue Helicopters to respond north.?
    IRCG helos are on the civil register not military (so no)

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  7. #31
    CQMS spider's Avatar
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    There is already a service level agreement in place which means that the NIFRS respond to incidents in East Donegal (being tasked through the Camp West Ops Room).

    If your house in Lifford or Burnfoot goes up your Firefighters will come from Strabane and / or Londonderry.

    There is no airborne fire-fighting capability in Northern Ireland (in fact I'm not sure the RAF do this apart from in Cyprus)...so its the IAC or no-one else. Its a non-military operation... if it requires diplomatic clearance thats a shame... because it is in effect the Fire Service in the Republic lending assets they have access to... to their colleagues in the North...surely as suggested a template type clearance for this type of situation would be easy to jack up.
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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  9. #32
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    There is a long tradition of firefighters from the south going north to help out. This isn't much different really, apart from the colour of the vehicle.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
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  11. #33
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spider View Post
    There is already a service level agreement in place which means that the NIFRS respond to incidents in East Donegal (being tasked through the Camp West Ops Room).

    If your house in Lifford or Burnfoot goes up your Firefighters will come from Strabane and / or Londonderry.

    There is no airborne fire-fighting capability in Northern Ireland (in fact I'm not sure the RAF do this apart from in Cyprus)...so its the IAC or no-one else. Its a non-military operation... if it requires diplomatic clearance thats a shame... because it is in effect the Fire Service in the Republic lending assets they have access to... to their colleagues in the North...surely as suggested a template type clearance for this type of situation would be easy to jack up.
    It’s a military aircraft, military chain of command, military operation (on a non-specific military op) - therefore requires diplomatic clearance (probably a couple of phone calls) and it would be the same if we were requesting assistance

    I know of housing estates within the Republic where on 1 side of the road the fire brigade from 1 county attends and the other side a different county attends.

    It’s strange how NI has no SAR or medium lift military helos any more (they do have RAF Gazelles (ISTAR equipped or at least used to be))

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  13. #34
    CQMS spider's Avatar
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    No RAF aircraft in NI now Dev. AAC Gazelles and Islander / Defenders. The NI Air Ambulance or PSNI helicopters can lift but not winch casualties. All UK military transport helicopters are based in the South of England. Search and Rescue helicopter cover comes from HMCG Prestwick though in practice the ICG helicopter from Sligo gets requested often too. Its neighbourliness at its best
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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  15. #35
    Sergeant Major EUFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spider View Post
    No RAF aircraft in NI now Dev. AAC Gazelles and Islander / Defenders. The NI Air Ambulance or PSNI helicopters can lift but not winch casualties. All UK military transport helicopters are based in the South of England. Search and Rescue helicopter cover comes from HMCG Prestwick though in practice the ICG helicopter from Sligo gets requested often too. Its neighbourliness at its best
    The AAC Islander/Defenders are due to be transferred to the RAF, was agreed 2 years ago but like most things these days no fixed timetable is available.

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  17. #36
    CQMS spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    The AAC Islander/Defenders are due to be transferred to the RAF, was agreed 2 years ago but like most things these days no fixed timetable is available.
    I spoke to an AAC Pilot in the spring of last year; he told me 5 Regt AAC based at Aldergrove was to disband, and that the AAC was to reduce in size by about 5-600 PIDS.

    There was also stuff flying around about the imminent retirement of Gazelle, and the transfer of all AAC fixed-wing aircraft to the RAF, most likely to RAF Northolt.

    In the meantime some other kind of defence review is now on-going, so these plans seem to be in abeyance, indeed Gazelle has had its in-service life extended to 2025.

    If 5 Regiment AAC do disband the MOD will still need to base in Northern Ireland ISTAR fixed and rotary wing assets of some sort, to enable Op HELVETIC the on-going military support to the Police in the province. Either that or grow the already extensive PSNI Air Support Unit by about 300%...and expand their role.

    Given that 5 Regiment AAC are the major unit based at Aldergrove, if they do disband I can see one of three things happening;

    1. The military side or at least a significant chunk of the military side (its split into three sites) closing, allowing the civil Belfast International Airport (on the other side of the runway) to expand (its creaking at the seams and increasing passenger numbers year on year). In this event the PSNI Air Support Unit and various other company sized Army units would have to relocate.

    2. With the draw-down of Germany a major unit re-located to Aldergrove... either from Germany or from the UK to facilitate another units move from Germany... and / or equipment stored in Germany be stored in the hangars at Aldergrove.

    3. Thiepval Barracks in Lisburn closing, and HQ 38X plus all the other units based there re-locating to Aldergrove. Thiepval is a huge site sitting on prime land for redevelopment, very close to Lisburn city centre.

    My money is on option 3...I've heard rumours at different times that the MOD aspiration for NI is to base everyone in a super-site at Aldergrove... thus selling all other regular Army sites except the training areas at Magilligan and Ballykinlar.

    However, given the intention to grow the Reserves in NI there may well be pressure for real estate; Aldergrove has recently seen the reformation of 502 Sqn RAF Reserves and the NI Universities Air Squadron there amongst other bits and pieces.

    Interesting times indeed.
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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  19. #37
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
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    At least one part of Ireland takes defence seriously!
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

  20. #38
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    I'm shocked that the gazelle is still in service with the AAC. A fine aircraft but surely well past it in terms of liason. There are plenty of better helis out there surely.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
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  21. #39
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Not 100% but either way diplomatic level authorisation is required



    IRCG helos are on the civil register not military (so no)


    I assume the paperwork is on the northern side given they are the ones requesting the service
    Time for another break I think......

  22. #40
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    I assume the paperwork is on the northern side given they are the ones requesting the service
    Both i’d Imagine, it’s a cross border op so DoD would be involved I’d say

  23. #41
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    The French still use plenty of Gazelles and the only difficulty is the shortage of some critical spares but you can expect the Gazelle to be phased out for Eurocopters in short order. A lot of it depends on the manufacturer; as an example, Dassault stopped supporting the Mirage III family a few years ago and users had to simply burn up what was on hand on the parts shelf or go horse-trading in the open market so several air forces that operated the III/V family found their air forces running out of combat power in quick time. Another example is the Alpha jet; still a first class trainer and light strike aircraft but air forces are putting them out to grass and finding it hard to get suitable trainers for the next generation.

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  25. #42
    CQMS spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmit� View Post
    I'm shocked that the gazelle is still in service with the AAC. A fine aircraft but surely well past it in terms of liason. There are plenty of better helis out there surely.
    I believe they looked at leasing some kind of light liaison type airframe, possibly EC135s, not sure why they decided to stick with Gazelle.

    This article suggests their ultimate replacement may be UAVs.

    https://flyinginireland.com/2016/08/...ce-until-2025/
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

  26. #43
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    Back in the day, a Gazelle heli was part of the UK infantry brigade orbat. Brigade commander used it as transport.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
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    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  28. #44
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    The French still use plenty of Gazelles and the only difficulty is the shortage of some critical spares but you can expect the Gazelle to be phased out for Eurocopters in short order. A lot of it depends on the manufacturer; as an example, Dassault stopped supporting the Mirage III family a few years ago and users had to simply burn up what was on hand on the parts shelf or go horse-trading in the open market so several air forces that operated the III/V family found their air forces running out of combat power in quick time. Another example is the Alpha jet; still a first class trainer and light strike aircraft but air forces are putting them out to grass and finding it hard to get suitable trainers for the next generation.
    I assume with the hope of boosting sales of newer types?

    Quote Originally Posted by spider View Post
    I believe they looked at leasing some kind of light liaison type airframe, possibly EC135s, not sure why they decided to stick with Gazelle ]
    Think that was just for training

  29. #45
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    The French Army will probably continue to use the Gazelle until their Chief of Staff pries it out of their hands. The original Squirrel / Ecureuil was considered to be it's replacement, yet the Squirrel is considered old hat now, despite it being even more reliable and user friendly than a Gazelle.

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  31. #46
    Sergeant Major EUFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    The French Army will probably continue to use the Gazelle until their Chief of Staff pries it out of their hands. The original Squirrel / Ecureuil was considered to be it's replacement, yet the Squirrel is considered old hat now, despite it being even more reliable and user friendly than a Gazelle.
    The French, all branches last year selected the Airbus H-160M as the common replacement for their Alloutte III, Gazelle, Squirrel/Ecureuil, Dauphin/Panther and Puma helicopters under their Hélicoptère Interarmées Léger (HIL) program. Originally this was to start in 2019 but the latest from Airbus was that the H-160M will only be available from 2022.

  32. #47
    Sergeant Major EUFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Think that was just for training
    Under the UK Military Flying Training System (UKMFTS) which is contracted out the rotary element uses H-135 & H-145 helicopters. They were part of the 100yr fly past a few weeks ago.

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  34. #48
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    Most of the RAF has been contracted out. It's only a shadow of what it used to be.

  35. #49
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    Not just the RAF the army reserve calls the AA in the event of a vehicle breakdown ...

  36. #50
    CQMS spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    Most of the RAF has been contracted out. It's only a shadow of what it used to be.
    The whole thing was a silly experiment anyway...fcuking creatures...
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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