Thanks Thanks:  81
Likes Likes:  171
Dislikes Dislikes:  1
Page 1 of 15 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 358
  1. #1
    Closed Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    868
    Post Thanks / Like

    Defence Forces Artillery

    I know a fair bit of this is opsec, but what can you guys tell me about our artillery units?

    What's the make up for each brigade? It's all 105mm, right?

  2. #2
    Brigadier General
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    2,754
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Napp View Post
    I know a fair bit of this is opsec, but what can you guys tell me about our artillery units?

    What's the make up for each brigade? It's all 105mm, right?
    The DF website has a page on artillery.
    http://www.military.ie/army/organisa...orps/artillery

    The artillery units are:
    1 Field Artillery Regiment
    2 Field Artillery Regiment
    4 Field Artillery Regiment
    1 Air Defence Regiment

  3. #3
    Closed Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    868
    Post Thanks / Like
    Does the arty deploy overseas at all? Or can gunners just go over as riflemen?

  4. #4
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    you already know too much
    Posts
    33,440
    Post Thanks / Like
    They used to deploy 120mm Mortars to UNIFIL in the past.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  5. #5
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    23,643
    Post Thanks / Like
    According to a fairly recent An Cosantoir article each PDF FAR has 1 heavy mortar battery and all RDF FARs are completed equipped with the 120.

    In the past as Goldie says the artillery deployed the Brandt 120 with UNIFIL.

    In the present, the gunners man the mortar platoon (81) overseas - in the same article there was talk of deploying the 120 again but not sure if it has been done

  6. #6
    Closed Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    868
    Post Thanks / Like
    Got ya. Just looking at this - http://www.military.ie/army/weapons - it has the 81mm marked as a coy level weapon. At home, is it an infantry mans job?

  7. #7
    Lt General Barry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Rancho Relaxo
    Posts
    4,704
    Post Thanks / Like
    The new 120s are deployed overseas

  8. Thanks DeV thanked for this post
    Likes DeV liked this post
  9. #8
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    23,643
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Napp View Post
    Got ya. Just looking at this - http://www.military.ie/army/weapons - it has the 81mm marked as a coy level weapon. At home, is it an infantry mans job?
    No it doesn't.... it says 60 mortar is a coy level weapon and 81 is battalion level, all the weapons mentioned on that page are normally operated by the infantry.

  10. #9
    CQMS
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    116
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    No it doesn't.... it says 60 mortar is a coy level weapon and 81 is battalion level, all the weapons mentioned on that page are normally operated by the infantry.
    Artillery Regiments Also fire 81mm in 2 formats:

    1. The Brandt LBLM 81mm

    2. The 120mm\81mm MS ( RUAG M87)

    An 81mm insert sub calibre barrel is slipped into the 120mm Barrel and fires 81mm

  11. #10
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Home of the British Army
    Posts
    7,769
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by mercurydoc View Post
    Artillery Regiments Also fire 81mm in 2 formats:

    1. The Brandt LBLM 81mm

    2. The 120mm\81mm MS ( RUAG M87)

    An 81mm insert sub calibre barrel is slipped into the 120mm Barrel and fires 81mm
    but aren't those weapons mortars not artillery?

    so why are the artillery firing them and not the infantry?

    i know gunners who would never resign themselves to be called mortarmen, and i know mortarmen who see themselves as far superior to gunners by being able to provide such close support to their infantry brothers.

    i know it's just a name - but mortars are mortars, despite their larger calibre in some instances.
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

    The Rifles

  12. #11
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    23,643
    Post Thanks / Like
    A 120mm mortar is a poor mans 155mm, it is artillery and always has been in Ireland (although I think the French use it at battalion level).

    The artillery train on the 81, as they man the mortar platoons overseas with the weapon (means that the infantry don't have to provide the personnel).

    As mercurydoc says the RUAG 120 comes with a barrel insert that allows (cheaper) 81 rounds to be fired from a 120.

    The infanty also man and fire the 81..... at home.

  13. #12
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Home of the British Army
    Posts
    7,769
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The infanty also man and fire the 81..... at home.
    doesn't that mean these should be the people manning and firing it overseas where it surely matters most?

    why would anyone join the Mortar Platoon at home only to be replaced by a load of Gunners when on Operations?

    train as you fight, fight as you train.
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

    The Rifles

  14. #13
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Metropolis
    Posts
    3,153
    Post Thanks / Like
    is this to do with us not deploying atomic self sufficient companies and battalions overseas but rather building them ad hoc before deploying them?
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

  15. Likes DeV liked this post
  16. #14
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    you already know too much
    Posts
    33,440
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
    doesn't that mean these should be the people manning and firing it overseas where it surely matters most?

    why would anyone join the Mortar Platoon at home only to be replaced by a load of Gunners when on Operations?

    train as you fight, fight as you train.
    You don't get the choice which platoon, you go where you are sent, if you don't complete the weapon courses, you get sent elsewhere.
    Is this another "BA are better" ramble?
    If you want non mechanised infantry to lug about a 120mm mortar, its baseplate, tripod and ammo you need to have your head examined.
    Unless you can show me british infantrymen who do it.

    That said, there is an argument for making all artillery elements of a support company within an infantry bn. Buth thats a whole other story.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  17. #15
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Home of the British Army
    Posts
    7,769
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    Is this another "BA are better" ramble?

    If you want non mechanised infantry to lug about a 120mm mortar, its baseplate, tripod and ammo you need to have your head examined.
    Unless you can show me british infantrymen who do it.
    no Goldie - it's nothing to do with the British Army or what we do - it's about Mortars and the Artillery. Mortars are for Infantrymen, Artillery is for Gunners.

    so i don't see why you have Infantrymen on the Mortars at home to be replaced by Gunners on Operations.

    [edited to prevent any bitching]
    Last edited by RoyalGreenJacket; 22nd September 2011 at 14:20.
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

    The Rifles

  18. #16
    Corporal Mr. Tezza's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Kerry
    Posts
    233
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Napp View Post
    Does the arty deploy overseas at all? Or can gunners just go over as riflemen?
    Yes, not sure of the particulars but my mate was a gunner and went overseas to Liberia presume it was as a support/heavy weapons coy but don't know for sure

  19. #17
    C/S
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Dublin
    Posts
    3,171
    Post Thanks / Like
    most militaries who use 120mm mortars have them as an artillery weapon, crewed by artillery personnel, the USMC and the french spring to mind for example.

    The Danes have just bought a load of 120mm mortars for deploymewnt to afghanistan and again crew them with lads from artillery units

  20. Thanks DeV thanked for this post
    Likes DeV liked this post
  21. #18
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    23,643
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
    no Goldie - it's nothing to do with the British Army or what we do - it's about Mortars and the Artillery. Mortars are for Infantrymen, Artillery is for Gunners.

    so i don't see why you have Infantrymen on the Mortars at home to be replaced by Gunners on Operations.

    [edited to prevent any bitching]

    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    most militaries who use 120mm mortars have them as an artillery weapon, crewed by artillery personnel, the USMC and the french spring to mind for example.

    The Danes have just bought a load of 120mm mortars for deploymewnt to afghanistan and again crew them with lads from artillery units
    A heavy mortar (ie a 120) is an artillery weapons. Light (60) and medium (81) mortars are infantry weapons.

    RGJ, if a member of the DF wishes to extend their contract they have to serve overseas.... this means that members of the Artillery Corps can get the chance to serve overseas as the chances of us deploying a battery with the UN are slim..... although there is provision for it in the palette of forces.

  22. #19
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Home of the British Army
    Posts
    7,769
    Post Thanks / Like
    fair one Dev, and Paul G - thanks for the clarity and throwing some light on the subject.
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

    The Rifles

  23. Thanks DeV thanked for this post
    Likes DeV liked this post
  24. #20
    gunner at heart Archimedes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    471
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
    no Goldie - it's nothing to do with the British Army or what we do - it's about Mortars and the Artillery. Mortars are for Infantrymen, Artillery is for Gunners.

    so i don't see why you have Infantrymen on the Mortars at home to be replaced by Gunners on Operations.
    The Irish Arty Corps took this view for a while after we got rid of the Brandt 120s. Fine, the heavy mortar was easy to move around but it was short ranged, relatively inaccurate and ugly (a bit like the cav). As such, the gentlemen of the corps treated the mortar with the distain normally reserved for the cav. The corps concentrated on the L118/L119 (of which numbers are limited) while retaining the 25pr for training purposes.

    This was all fine in theory but the government wasn't willing to deploy any of these weapons operationally so the arty ended up deploying with 81mm mortars. The higher ups in the arty world reckoned that pretty soon, the bean counters might start wondering why have the arty at all if the inf can fire the 81. The 120 mortar became our friend again.

    Just in time too as we ran out of parts for the 25prs and if the large batch of previously owned 120s hadn't come along, rdf arty would have died in the short term and without rdf support for courses etc, pdf arty mightn't have been far behind.

    The 17km from an L118 is in a different class to the 8km from the Ruag 120 but the skills required in terms of OP, CP, survey, signals and deployments generally are much the same. Maybe soon, the higher ups will deploy the L118 operationally and give our troops the increased protection offered by the superior weapon (the French brought the Caesar 155mm to the Leb) but until then the 120mm will continue to be our main raison d'etre.
    Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

  25. Thanks DeV thanked for this post
    Likes DeV liked this post
  26. #21
    Banned User
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    72
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
    doesn't that mean these should be the people manning and firing it overseas where it surely matters most?

    why would anyone join the Mortar Platoon at home only to be replaced by a load of Gunners when on Operations?

    train as you fight, fight as you train.
    Many of the skills associated with Arty such as laying etc would obviously be transferable between Mortars and Light Arty like the 105.
    Since the Arty units are training in these skills all year round they would naturally more highly skilled than Infantry men who are not Arty specialists.

    Overseas we would want our best covering all the required bases so naturally the Arty man the 81's overseas.

  27. #22
    Banned User
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    72
    Post Thanks / Like
    I heard the 2 FAR are the unofficial elite of the Arty .

  28. #23
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    23,643
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimedes View Post
    The 17km from an L118 is in a different class to the 8km from the Ruag 120 but the skills required in terms of OP, CP, survey, signals and deployments generally are much the same. Maybe soon, the higher ups will deploy the L118 operationally and give our troops the increased protection offered by the superior weapon (the French brought the Caesar 155mm to the Leb) but until then the 120mm will continue to be our main raison d'etre.
    But the 120 has a much bigger danger area in comparsion to the 105, twice the size!

    http://fileserver.4pm.ie/Upload/15/15282-bjl.pdf

    page 16 & 17

  29. #24
    Banned User
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    72
    Post Thanks / Like
    There are also rocket propelled 12mm rounds available.

    On a side note,
    Apparently the south Africans used to pour some petrol into the barrel for added propulsion of their 120mm rounds....crazy feckers.

  30. #25
    gunner at heart Archimedes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    471
    Post Thanks / Like
    The 105 shell is a bit heavier but the 120 round contains a bit more HE as the steel walls of the mortar round don't need to be as thick. When it comes to effect on the ground, they are fairly similar.

    Range is the king though. A 120 can cover approx 200 sq km, the L118 can cover over 900sq km - thats a lot of ground. The L118 also has higher accuracy, higher rate of fire (bipods on the Ruag jump a lot) as well as a 360 degree arc of fire without messing with a baseplate.
    Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •