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  • Originally posted by Archimedes View Post
    The 120 and the L118 are both very capable weapons but they would be far better if they had the intelligence to be ready to fire as soon as they were dropped off the back of the wagon. If we did wish to spend some dosh, I would be with Dev in terms of adding some smarts to what we already have. I also share the opinion of various posters that a few 120s mounted in the back of Mowags would be very useful for long range patrols overseas.

    1) In terms of the smarts, I would not be in favour of copying the British upgrades. That technology is already out of date. They need a generator sitting on the back of the trail to power the thing. There are lots of tech centres in Ireland with huge experience of rugged embedded systems. We are well capable of developing our own compact low power system suitable for deployment on both the 120s and the 105s. I would base it on a modern fibre optic north finder such as the latest offering from Emcore. Don't bother with a radar for MVs, estimate it with an accelerometer on the barrel and a pressure sensor on the recuperator (105 only). Add WiFi based FHSS comms such as used in the PRRs to network the lot to the CP but retain a local capacity for a DC to enter a target grid and have the sight tell him a charge and show him where to point the barrel. Get fixation based on GPS,GLONASS and future proof for Magellan, retain a non-satellite fixation ability to enter a starting location and track position based on heading and road wheel revolutions. Above all, keep everything very low power with a lithium battery that will last for days but charge in 20min when the trailer lights are plugged into a vehicle and maybe an ability to continuously charge from a solar panel when deployed in a firebase for an extended period.

    2) As for mounting a few on Mowags, the possibility of buying the BigHorn mortar system was investigated a few years ago but they were too expensive for Paddy's wallet. If we had our own smart laying system, it would be great to let Timoney loose on a few Mowags with a tin opener, add a large hydraulic sunroof and mount a turntable for a Ruag 120. I don't know what charge you could fire on wheels with no buffers but if any lads know about beefing up suspensions, its them.

    All that said, we all know that nothing is going to be spent any time soon :(
    Originally posted by Archimedes View Post
    Feature-wise, linaps is fairly close to what is required. Its biggest drawback is the way it sucks juice. Dev's 2nd link tells that it had a 115Ahr power pack that will keep it running for 24hrs (it doesn't say whether that is at 12V or 24V). Thats about 5A continuous current. If it was redesigned using the latest components and processors and used accelerometer based MV detection, that could be cut by a factor of at least 10. Eg, the Marconi gyro in the Linaps consumes 50W and weighs about 10kg, the Emcore one that I mentioned earlier consumes 5W and weighs less that half a kg but has similar accuracy. Using the latest components, it is possible to build a much smaller system that could run for a couple of days on one lithium sincgars battery and be far more suitable for mounting on the 120 Ruag as well as the 105s.
    Given how innovative some parts of the DF have become adapting COTS items (especially CIS and Arty), it is not beyond the relms of possibilities that it could even be done in house
    Last edited by DeV; 24 August 2016, 21:50.

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    • As for SP mortars, the Polish rifled 120mm gun-mortar looks to be the best system ATM

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      • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
        As for SP mortars, the Polish rifled 120mm gun-mortar looks to be the best system ATM
        unneccessary - the DF currently has a solution (if not a perfect solution) in its own armouries.

        the 120mm mortar is capable of firing guided munitions, if its taken out on a vehicle patrol either inside a vehicle or towed, it can do a decent job against the kind of threats the DF operates. its not fantastic, it has issues, but it has the capability to provide the organic fire support the DF needs in the kind of PK/PE operations the DF is likely to be undertaking in the near to medium term.

        you could utilise it in two different ways: firstly with the patrol. when things go bad the vehicle carrying/towing the mortar puts his toes down and gets out of the immediate danger area. unload/unpack the mortar, synch with the ISR/ISTAR to get targetting, and let the rounds go asap. secondly you could operate it as a mobile firebase - it follows the patrol while keeping the patrol within its fire bubble, goes firm as often as possible and when the patrol goes into an area of heightened threat like a mountain pass, areas of cover, bridges etc.. laser guidance is the easiest to do, you just give the patrols a GLD (which aren't cheap...), and if you buy a a very good GLD you could use GPS guided munitions.

        its not as good as having an AH sat over the top of you, but its in the inventory (save the PGM's..), and given the cost of having an AH sat over the top of you its actually achievable.

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        • The question of local production is interesting, the total production of the Terrex is 135 unit. Would suggest that a 300 unit order would justify a production line in Meath.
          I have long like the Terrex but the it has not made the cuts for the Land400 Phase 2 competion. Of the remaining I would go for the AMV.
          It is already in service with our Swedish and Finnish battlegroup/UN buddies and armed with the turret of the CV9035 it cuts a fine figure. Can also mount the twin 120mm AMOS mortor turret.

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          Let order the AMV35 to replacement the Piranha APC
          - AMV with an OTO Melara HITFACT120 turret as replacement for the AML90's
          - AMV with either AMOS or NEMO 120mm mortor as replacement for the AML60's
          - AMV with a DENEL T7 turret for long range fire support
          + Command, Ambulance, Recovery, Engineering and ISTAR/RSTA versions.

          Should keeping the boys in Navan busy!
          Last edited by EUFighter; 25 August 2016, 13:34.

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          • If you established a production line in Ireland, given the sad (industrial-related) history of any motorised vehicle in Ireland, since time began, you'd be on a hiding to nothing. Virtually all such ventures have failed thru industrial action, pricing themselves out of the market or Govt interference. The only aspect of that kind of thing that has succeeded is firms like Combilift or people assembling kits of vehicles and even they have failed. Limited production of specialist vehicles like ambulances and fire engines has failed in Ireland before and to use an aviation comparison, successful companies like Airmotive and a host of overhaul firms like TEAM, FLS, SRT 9all of which were making money but closed by their hosts for political reasons) and so on have gone to the wall. I'd rather hand the plans to Hyundai and let them churn them out....also, I wouldn't let the DF have any involvement in any kind of production or maintenance facility. They can't deal with what they have...

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            • Originally posted by DeV View Post
              Given how innovative some parts of the DF have become adapting COTS items (especially CIS and Arty), it is not beyond the relms of possibilities that it could even be done in house
              Holy zombie post batman!

              It is interesting to see that we now have an Irish company called Innalabs producing MEMS type gyros of the type that I referred to in those posts you quoted from 2013.
              For the non-techies, these devices can determine north by sensing the rotation of the earth rather than by sensing the earth's magnetic field.
              This makes them insensitive to local magnetic variations and suitable for smart aiming systems that can be attached to steel items such as artillery/mortars.
              Gyro-based north finders are not new but they traditionally used physical spinning masses or fibre optics. The MEMS ones are ideal for lightweight and low power applications.

              Innalabs can currently achieve 3/4 Mil accuracy in 90 secs and 1 Mil if you have more time to average readings.
              It would not be beyond the bounds of possibility for the Defence Enterprise Committee to organise a project with the DF, Innolabs and a suitable 3rd level research centre to develop a smart integrated aiming solution tailored to Irish needs.

              InnaLabs® is Europe's No.1 inertial sensor provider for Space Micro-launchers, Satellite Constellations, and Telecommunication Satellites.


              Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

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              • The other failure is the failure to have 155mm as a core gun calibre. The next failure is that of failing to get a 90mm on the Mowags to replace the Scorpion.There are also manpower utility issues in the Cav and base workshops.

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                • Archimedes,

                  It's a nice idea for the 'what if...' pile, but do you really think that if you spent €1m on such a project you'd get more than one single PGM prototype out of it?

                  If you went to the US and bought under FMS you'd get about 50 GPS, Laser or IR guided 120mm rounds delivered within two weeks.

                  I also see no export market - why by from an obscure Irish company with no history, and subject to the political whims of the Irish government when you can get something tried and tested from a government that tends to take the long view when it comes to defence sales?

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                  • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                    Archimedes,

                    It's a nice idea for the 'what if...' pile, but do you really think that if you spent €1m on such a project you'd get more than one single PGM prototype out of it?

                    If you went to the US and bought under FMS you'd get about 50 GPS, Laser or IR guided 120mm rounds delivered within two weeks.

                    I also see no export market - why by from an obscure Irish company with no history, and subject to the political whims of the Irish government when you can get something tried and tested from a government that tends to take the long view when it comes to defence sales?
                    Innalabs sell to UAV, RWS, etc manufacturers currently (although I don't know to who)

                    It isn't necessarily about export potential (although hopefully it would be a byproduct). It is about Irish industry getting access to DF expertise and visa-versa in order to solve a problem at low cost. There is a sub chapter in the WP on it.

                    I don't know to much about the black art of arty apart from sitting in the simulator and watching a battery fire but a proper system to greatly improved accuracy would be a much cheaper alternative to PGMs.
                    Last edited by DeV; 25 August 2016, 21:10.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DeV View Post

                      ....I don't know to much about the black art of arty apart from sitting in the simulator and watching a battery fire but a proper system to greatly improved accuracy would be a much cheaper alternative to PGMs.
                      Sadly I know of nothing in 'normal' gunnery that will produce the first-shot accuracy that PGM's provide - and believe me, at £30k a pop, everyone is looking, but there's nothing on the horizon that will do the job.

                      A PGM Artillery or mortar round will hit the right apartment in a block of flats at maximum range with just one shot - even under perfect conditions with radar correction a 105mm firing unguided munitions you'd fire a dozen rounds before you got within 100m of the block of flats, let alone the right apartment. To get the right apartment you'd have to turn the whole thing to rubble.

                      Hardly reducing collateral damage to the minimum....

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                      • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                        Archimedes,

                        It's a nice idea for the 'what if...' pile, but do you really think that if you spent €1m on such a project you'd get more than one single PGM prototype out of it?

                        If you went to the US and bought under FMS you'd get about 50 GPS, Laser or IR guided 120mm rounds delivered within two weeks.

                        I also see no export market - why by from an obscure Irish company with no history, and subject to the political whims of the Irish government when you can get something tried and tested from a government that tends to take the long view when it comes to defence sales?
                        Co in question is a exporter and its founder is Russian

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                          Sadly I know of nothing in 'normal' gunnery that will produce the first-shot accuracy that PGM's provide - and believe me, at £30k a pop, everyone is looking, but there's nothing on the horizon that will do the job.

                          A PGM Artillery or mortar round will hit the right apartment in a block of flats at maximum range with just one shot - even under perfect conditions with radar correction a 105mm firing unguided munitions you'd fire a dozen rounds before you got within 100m of the block of flats, let alone the right apartment. To get the right apartment you'd have to turn the whole thing to rubble.

                          Hardly reducing collateral damage to the minimum....
                          I didn't say that it could get the same accuracy I said it would be a cheaper alternative not that it offered the same capabilities

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                            I didn't say that it could get the same accuracy I said it would be a cheaper alternative not that it offered the same capabilities
                            What capability do you think it would provide - and why do you think companies with little experience, and a DF with none whatsoever trying to develop a new technology would be cheaper than anything you could buy off the shelf?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                              Archimedes,

                              It's a nice idea for the 'what if...' pile, but do you really think that if you spent €1m on such a project you'd get more than one single PGM prototype out of it?

                              If you went to the US and bought under FMS you'd get about 50 GPS, Laser or IR guided 120mm rounds delivered within two weeks.

                              I also see no export market - why by from an obscure Irish company with no history, and subject to the political whims of the Irish government when you can get something tried and tested from a government that tends to take the long view when it comes to defence sales?
                              Give a man a fish and you'll feed him for a day ...

                              Firstly, guided munitions are a whole different ball game and not what was suggested here.
                              A gyro based aiming system would not improve the accuracy of our weapons one iota over what you would get if you spent a half hour laying them out in traditional fashion.
                              It would never give you the accuracy of guided munitions but that does not mean that it is not worthwhile.
                              The ability to drop a 105/120 off of the back of a truck/ltav and be ready to fire as soon as it is in action is highly desirable.
                              Being networked to the CP also speeds things up, eliminates mistakes and provides inherent checking of the lay.

                              Sure, others are already doing this eg the UK LINAPS but technology such as what Innalabs have can make the whole thing much smaller and lower power.
                              Why buy an aiming system from an obscure Irish company? Well if it had successful trials with the Irish DF, was compact enough to clamp onto a 120mm barrel and could do 24hr continuous use with one lithium sincgars battery, you might be surprised.

                              ps: why limit the ambition to a 120. If you make it light enough and small enough that the whole self contained unit will clamp to an 81mm barrel, then every Bn commander in the world will want them.

                              pps: here is an existing "dismounted" system based on fibre optic gyro (FOG) technology. It must be wired to a separate power supply containing 8 Sincgars batteries and has a battery life of 13 hours http://ausar-web01.inetu.net/publica...ts/SA_0710.pdf
                              Last edited by Archimedes; 26 August 2016, 01:09.
                              Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                                What capability do you think it would provide - and why do you think companies with little experience, and a DF with none whatsoever trying to develop a new technology would be cheaper than anything you could buy off the shelf?
                                The ability to be in action extremely rapidly with less chance of human error. Possibly more accurately than the old fashioned way.

                                It is about innovation.

                                This would actually be more about an Irish company developing a solution to a worldwide problem than the DF buying a system. The company gets access to DF equipment and expertise, the DF gets access to new equipment (for trials) and expertise and maybe a 3rd level institution comes in too. The DF doesn't necessarily have to buy it (that is the beauty) or any system.

                                Archimedes,
                                One for the innovation email address!
                                Last edited by DeV; 26 August 2016, 09:00.

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