Originally posted by sofa
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Firefighters suspended as Roscommon requests Defence Forces assistance
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People of Roscommon do not want Army playing as firemen.
People are wondering about the wonderful Civil Defence with the Orange Uniforms and blue light vehicles why they are not getting involved.
People will go mad if they see GardaĆ escorting fire engines especially as the marked district car in Castlerea is a Ford Fiesta and the Ballaghaderreen car is the only car there and there is no Garda car in Elphin or Strokestown.
In addition I think the Fire Fighters are correct management can not be trusted, no interest in their troops. No fire officer in Roscommon has held a hose, stood on a ladder, put on a mask, or put anything out bar maybe "the cat" and they can fail a Fire Fighter and then sack him for failing yet they have not done the course?????
Not good lads!
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As always, there are side issues and this is being used as a launch-pad to air grievances, some real, some built up. Some of this is grandstanding by union-rules-bud types, with a chip against anyone above their level; more of it is genuine concern about the training system being used as a tool to get rid of people. Either way, if the DF get involved, it'll hurt positive feelings about the DF in Roscommon.
regards
GttC
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Originally posted by Bravo20 View PostSo they have direct entry fire officers now?
Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.
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The issues as I see are Firstly ,Senior Officers being used as instructors. These offices join the service at a senior rank with no previous experience at the rank of Assistant fire Officer.
Most of the Senior Officers have no actual firefighting experience. They do a 2 week retained recruit course to show them what the Fire Service do, then they do an initial BA wearers course ( 2 week ) and then a 2 week BA instructors course without any real life experience.
They then run courses and rate the performance of Firefighters.
I think some of the Senior Officers in Roscommon failed their initial BA course a couple of times before they were passed by their peers and then became instructors.
Alot of this goes back to the pre competency days of Senior officers filling their CVs.
Now they want to introduce pass/referral/fail compentency into firefighter refreshers whan BA instructors do not have a refresher system for themselves as instructors.
There is no consistency in the application of compentency. One FF failed an excersise as part of a team excersise which lead to the whole team being failed.
when a FF is failed/referred they are stood down from duty and therefore lose pay by no turning out on Firecalls.
At the moment this only affects part time FF, it hasnt been tested by the Fulltime
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From what I've heard GF is correct.
Originally posted by Goldie fish View PostIt seems the problem is the course is being given by instructors who have not used the appliances, unlike the firefighters, who use them almost always.
A bit like a 2* instructing a POtential officers course, using manuals provided....
Originally posted by In my opinion View PostPeople of Roscommon do not want Army playing as firemen.
People are wondering about the wonderful Civil Defence with the Orange Uniforms and blue light vehicles why they are not getting involved.
Originally posted by Bravo20 View PostSo they have direct entry fire officers now?
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So they have direct entry fire officers now?
And they even let women Command with co Kildares CFO being Selina Barret who started life a s a medical student, became an Itern and packed all to join Dublin Firebrigade as one of their first female firefighters, she went onto study for here degree in Civil Engineering and when the Post was advertised in Kildare, she got the job,,oh Yeah! forgot to mention she's my cousin.
Some areas would also engineer qualified assistants having served as deputy assistant while waiting for vacancies.
CD can hold BA qualifications with the majority of courses run in Clonmel.
Waterford airport can now train BA operators as an extra , as three of the crew commanders down there have qualified as BA instructors.
APFS is the only branch that does not require the CFO to be a Civil engineer, but he must have the relevant course and competencies as laid out by the Irish Aviation Authority and ICAOCovid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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Originally posted by Seanachie View PostI learned to drive in one!
Originally posted by Goldie fish View PostIt seems the problem is the course is being given by instructors who have not used the appliances, unlike the firefighters, who use them almost always.
A bit like a 2* instructing a POtential officers course, using manuals provided....
firstly many courses are thought by people with less practical experience than those being thought.
For example drivers doing CPC for Bus and Truck are thought by people that would never even have sat in the driving seat of anything other than a car.
What would happen if every truck or bus driver decided not to do their CPC because their instructors didnt drive HGVs?
Secondly don't the training NCOs not follow the manual?
and would those NCOs have been in real firefights or just done course and practiced in various excercises.
Originally posted by Seanachie View PostWaterford airport can now train BA operators as an extra , as three of the crew commanders down there have qualified as BA instructors.
Wolud this be a reason for FFs to not do the course?
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Originally posted by DeV View PostMost counties do.
In Dublin at least, the Brigade falls under the Engineering side of DCC. Incidentally, the OBI is thick with ex-DF types...
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And how much practice do they have in burning houses?
Wolud this be a reason for FFs to not do the course
Operational use may be different but the principles of BA and working in smoke are the exact same.
Poor you!!
I've been offered an oppertunity to drive one again soon which I intend to avail of.Last edited by hptmurphy; 29 November 2011, 16:19.Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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Originally posted by Wicklaman View PostUp to Third Officer you will find 'enlisted' firefighters. There's also a parallel 'direct entry' stream of civil and structural engineers on the Fire Prevention side and at the very top of the Brigade structure. As with the DF, you will sometimes find ordinary firefighters who have undertaken the necessary courses to get promoted from the ranks. These tend to be rather impressive individuals (the person most directly responsible for the DFB design work on the Dublin Port Tunnel springs to mind).
In Dublin at least, the Brigade falls under the Engineering side of DCC. Incidentally, the OBI is thick with ex-DF types...
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Originally posted by Seanachie View PostBA users and supervisors course are same across the board.
Operational use may be different but the principles of BA and working in smoke are the exact same.
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Originally posted by Seanachie View PostAnd they even let women Command with co Kildares CFO being Selina Barret who started life a s a medical student, became an Itern and packed all to join Dublin Firebrigade as one of their first female firefighters, she went onto study for here degree in Civil Engineering and when the Post was advertised in Kildare, she got the job,,oh Yeah! forgot to mention she's my cousin"Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"
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Big, complicated, messy argument, but I'll wade in with a few comments:
The BA instructors course is a challenging one. Personnel from all officer ranks (from Sub-Officer to CFO) take the same course and have to demonstrate the same competencies. People from all ranks fail it fairly regularly. The instructors course is run either in Ireland or the UK, with most instructors normally being sub officers or station officers. It's generally regarded as a fair comment that if someone has passed it they are indeed competent BA instructors at the time.
Any BA course (either initial wearers or refreshers) that I've ever seen or heard of has a mixture of officer ranks instructing on it. It's not just the "direct entry" senior officers.
You might be surprised at how little experience is out there in the fire service of wearing BA in fires. House fires are a fairly infrequent event these days, there are stations out there in smaller towns where crews would see an average of 1-2 or less a year. Even at that, a lot of skills covered in a BA refresher relate to searching complicated buildings in a completely smokelogged state (i.e. the worse case scenario). This is a very rare event.
BA wearing is a very procedural skill, or "by the book" of you like to call it that. There is no room at all for making things up as you go along or cutting corners. It's very much life or death stuff and it's either right or it's not.
My own experience is that if that a competent BA wearer who gets regular training on station has nothing at all to fear from a biannual refresher course. It's not all that difficult and can be fairly enjoyable.
This issue has only arisen in a few places, and in my own opinion is more about personalities than anything else.
The labour court issued a ruling on this earlier today:
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