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Firefighters suspended as Roscommon requests Defence Forces assistance

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  • #31
    Originally posted by sofa View Post
    all lot of Gear that was used by the army was found "damaged"
    Im finding it hard to feel the outrage, particularly when there are good reasons for resisting management (anyone following the Wicklow mess of the past few years closely?).

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    • #32
      People of Roscommon do not want Army playing as firemen.
      People are wondering about the wonderful Civil Defence with the Orange Uniforms and blue light vehicles why they are not getting involved.

      People will go mad if they see GardaĆ­ escorting fire engines especially as the marked district car in Castlerea is a Ford Fiesta and the Ballaghaderreen car is the only car there and there is no Garda car in Elphin or Strokestown.

      In addition I think the Fire Fighters are correct management can not be trusted, no interest in their troops. No fire officer in Roscommon has held a hose, stood on a ladder, put on a mask, or put anything out bar maybe "the cat" and they can fail a Fire Fighter and then sack him for failing yet they have not done the course?????

      Not good lads!

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      • #33
        So they have direct entry fire officers now?

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        • #34
          As always, there are side issues and this is being used as a launch-pad to air grievances, some real, some built up. Some of this is grandstanding by union-rules-bud types, with a chip against anyone above their level; more of it is genuine concern about the training system being used as a tool to get rid of people. Either way, if the DF get involved, it'll hurt positive feelings about the DF in Roscommon.

          regards
          GttC

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Bravo20 View Post
            So they have direct entry fire officers now?
            Many of the managerial positions are direct entry, particularly the county fire officer jobs. They would have a specific engineering background. I'm being careful what I say here, as I know a former IMO member took such a route.


            Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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            • #36
              The issues as I see are Firstly ,Senior Officers being used as instructors. These offices join the service at a senior rank with no previous experience at the rank of Assistant fire Officer.
              Most of the Senior Officers have no actual firefighting experience. They do a 2 week retained recruit course to show them what the Fire Service do, then they do an initial BA wearers course ( 2 week ) and then a 2 week BA instructors course without any real life experience.
              They then run courses and rate the performance of Firefighters.
              I think some of the Senior Officers in Roscommon failed their initial BA course a couple of times before they were passed by their peers and then became instructors.
              Alot of this goes back to the pre competency days of Senior officers filling their CVs.

              Now they want to introduce pass/referral/fail compentency into firefighter refreshers whan BA instructors do not have a refresher system for themselves as instructors.

              There is no consistency in the application of compentency. One FF failed an excersise as part of a team excersise which lead to the whole team being failed.
              when a FF is failed/referred they are stood down from duty and therefore lose pay by no turning out on Firecalls.
              At the moment this only affects part time FF, it hasnt been tested by the Fulltime

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              • #37
                From what I've heard GF is correct.

                Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
                It seems the problem is the course is being given by instructors who have not used the appliances, unlike the firefighters, who use them almost always.
                A bit like a 2* instructing a POtential officers course, using manuals provided....
                It sounds like it is a civvy company and opposed to firefighters (as would normally be the case).


                Originally posted by In my opinion View Post
                People of Roscommon do not want Army playing as firemen.
                People are wondering about the wonderful Civil Defence with the Orange Uniforms and blue light vehicles why they are not getting involved.
                I'd see the argument but..... can CD operate BA? and what about their fulltime jobs?

                Originally posted by Bravo20 View Post
                So they have direct entry fire officers now?
                Most counties do.

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                • #38
                  So they have direct entry fire officers now?
                  Have done for the past thirty years or so, Chief Fire Officer is normal held by a Civil Engineer seconded by an Assistant who has come up through the ranks.Tony Gleeson in Waterford since retired would have been one of the First Graduate .His Asssistant had thirty years in the job dyed in the wool firgher but and retired as assitant, Willie Doyle another very good man.

                  And they even let women Command with co Kildares CFO being Selina Barret who started life a s a medical student, became an Itern and packed all to join Dublin Firebrigade as one of their first female firefighters, she went onto study for here degree in Civil Engineering and when the Post was advertised in Kildare, she got the job,,oh Yeah! forgot to mention she's my cousin.

                  Some areas would also engineer qualified assistants having served as deputy assistant while waiting for vacancies.

                  CD can hold BA qualifications with the majority of courses run in Clonmel.

                  Waterford airport can now train BA operators as an extra , as three of the crew commanders down there have qualified as BA instructors.

                  APFS is the only branch that does not require the CFO to be a Civil engineer, but he must have the relevant course and competencies as laid out by the Irish Aviation Authority and ICAO
                  Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Seanachie View Post
                    I learned to drive in one!
                    Poor you!!

                    Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
                    It seems the problem is the course is being given by instructors who have not used the appliances, unlike the firefighters, who use them almost always.
                    A bit like a 2* instructing a POtential officers course, using manuals provided....
                    ??????
                    firstly many courses are thought by people with less practical experience than those being thought.
                    For example drivers doing CPC for Bus and Truck are thought by people that would never even have sat in the driving seat of anything other than a car.
                    What would happen if every truck or bus driver decided not to do their CPC because their instructors didnt drive HGVs?

                    Secondly don't the training NCOs not follow the manual?
                    and would those NCOs have been in real firefights or just done course and practiced in various excercises.

                    Originally posted by Seanachie View Post
                    Waterford airport can now train BA operators as an extra , as three of the crew commanders down there have qualified as BA instructors.
                    And how much practice do they have in burning houses?
                    Wolud this be a reason for FFs to not do the course?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by DeV View Post
                      Most counties do.
                      Up to Third Officer you will find 'enlisted' firefighters. There's also a parallel 'direct entry' stream of civil and structural engineers on the Fire Prevention side and at the very top of the Brigade structure. As with the DF, you will sometimes find ordinary firefighters who have undertaken the necessary courses to get promoted from the ranks. These tend to be rather impressive individuals (the person most directly responsible for the DFB design work on the Dublin Port Tunnel springs to mind).

                      In Dublin at least, the Brigade falls under the Engineering side of DCC. Incidentally, the OBI is thick with ex-DF types...

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                      • #41
                        And how much practice do they have in burning houses?
                        Wolud this be a reason for FFs to not do the course
                        BA users and supervisors course are same across the board.

                        Operational use may be different but the principles of BA and working in smoke are the exact same.

                        Poor you!!
                        In hind sight I learned a hell of a lot driving the vehicle, was a good lead into army trucks and various other vehicles plus it gaveme an appreciation for driving other vehicles.

                        I've been offered an oppertunity to drive one again soon which I intend to avail of.
                        Last edited by hptmurphy; 29 November 2011, 16:19.
                        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Wicklaman View Post
                          Up to Third Officer you will find 'enlisted' firefighters. There's also a parallel 'direct entry' stream of civil and structural engineers on the Fire Prevention side and at the very top of the Brigade structure. As with the DF, you will sometimes find ordinary firefighters who have undertaken the necessary courses to get promoted from the ranks. These tend to be rather impressive individuals (the person most directly responsible for the DFB design work on the Dublin Port Tunnel springs to mind).

                          In Dublin at least, the Brigade falls under the Engineering side of DCC. Incidentally, the OBI is thick with ex-DF types...
                          Plus the guy who set up there river unit.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Seanachie View Post
                            BA users and supervisors course are same across the board.

                            Operational use may be different but the principles of BA and working in smoke are the exact same.
                            thats what I thought. So the fact that the guy is not an experienced fire fighter is or at least should be irrelevant.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Seanachie View Post
                              And they even let women Command with co Kildares CFO being Selina Barret who started life a s a medical student, became an Itern and packed all to join Dublin Firebrigade as one of their first female firefighters, she went onto study for here degree in Civil Engineering and when the Post was advertised in Kildare, she got the job,,oh Yeah! forgot to mention she's my cousin
                              Small world ! I heard her being interviewed on KFM 2-3 weeks ago
                              "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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                              • #45
                                Big, complicated, messy argument, but I'll wade in with a few comments:

                                The BA instructors course is a challenging one. Personnel from all officer ranks (from Sub-Officer to CFO) take the same course and have to demonstrate the same competencies. People from all ranks fail it fairly regularly. The instructors course is run either in Ireland or the UK, with most instructors normally being sub officers or station officers. It's generally regarded as a fair comment that if someone has passed it they are indeed competent BA instructors at the time.

                                Any BA course (either initial wearers or refreshers) that I've ever seen or heard of has a mixture of officer ranks instructing on it. It's not just the "direct entry" senior officers.

                                You might be surprised at how little experience is out there in the fire service of wearing BA in fires. House fires are a fairly infrequent event these days, there are stations out there in smaller towns where crews would see an average of 1-2 or less a year. Even at that, a lot of skills covered in a BA refresher relate to searching complicated buildings in a completely smokelogged state (i.e. the worse case scenario). This is a very rare event.

                                BA wearing is a very procedural skill, or "by the book" of you like to call it that. There is no room at all for making things up as you go along or cutting corners. It's very much life or death stuff and it's either right or it's not.

                                My own experience is that if that a competent BA wearer who gets regular training on station has nothing at all to fear from a biannual refresher course. It's not all that difficult and can be fairly enjoyable.

                                This issue has only arisen in a few places, and in my own opinion is more about personalities than anything else.

                                The labour court issued a ruling on this earlier today:

                                The National Retained Firefighters Association of Ireland is Ireland's Premier Association for Retained Firefighters.

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