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  1. #101
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    And I will disagree with you right back.
    The pre 1960's Denison smock is, as you say,vaguely camouflaged in a totally different ptn, but as I implied above even though 1960 Ptn (Limited issue) and 1966 Ptn (general issue) were slightly different they could still clearly be seen to be the same pattern.Much like our early and later IP-DPM's.


    "In 1966 the British Ministry of Defense issued the Pattern 1960 DPM (P60), the first in a long line of Disruptive Pattern Material uniforms to be issued by the British Armed Forces. The cut of the standard uniform was based on the Pattern 60 olive green combat uniform, but made in the DPM material. Additional versions were produced in the style of the M1942 Windproof uniform, and worn by British Special Forces. It is difficult to classify British DPM designs because so many different versions have been produced, yet only the type of uniform has ever received an official classification. Adding to the confusion, uniform classifications (P60, P68, P84) quite often conflict with the year in which the uniform was first issued. Subsequent uniform types may have initially been produced using the same printing of fabric of the previous model (P68, P84), while in most cases several production variants were also fielded in a single uniform classification. Illustrated below are two variations of the earliest known productions of DPM fabric, which would have appeared on the P60 Combat Uniform. Both designs also appeared on the 1968 Pattern Combat Uniform"

    https://camopedia.org/index.php?title=United_Kingdom

    So,between the jigs and reals,UK DPM in it's various guises,lasted a Looooooong time before being replace totally by MTP.
    Unlike NZ MCCU.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Unlike NZ MCCU.
    But does the MCCU really matter any longer. A decision made 7 years ago during a year when Defence budgets were cut? The last 15 years may have been awful for the NZDF but the next 15 years in terms of what is coming down the pipeline as outlined in the Defence Capability Plan last month including new multi-cam is far more interesting and has support from the opposition whose sole complaint was that the C-130J-30's were selected sole source.

  4. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    And I will disagree with you right back.
    The pre 1960's Denison smock is, as you say,vaguely camouflaged in a totally different ptn, but as I implied above even though 1960 Ptn (Limited issue) and 1966 Ptn (general issue) were slightly different they could still clearly be seen to be the same pattern.Much like our early and later IP-DPM's.


    "In 1966 the British Ministry of Defense issued the Pattern 1960 DPM (P60), the first in a long line of Disruptive Pattern Material uniforms to be issued by the British Armed Forces. The cut of the standard uniform was based on the Pattern 60 olive green combat uniform, but made in the DPM material. Additional versions were produced in the style of the M1942 Windproof uniform, and worn by British Special Forces. It is difficult to classify British DPM designs because so many different versions have been produced, yet only the type of uniform has ever received an official classification. Adding to the confusion, uniform classifications (P60, P68, P84) quite often conflict with the year in which the uniform was first issued. Subsequent uniform types may have initially been produced using the same printing of fabric of the previous model (P68, P84), while in most cases several production variants were also fielded in a single uniform classification. Illustrated below are two variations of the earliest known productions of DPM fabric, which would have appeared on the P60 Combat Uniform. Both designs also appeared on the 1968 Pattern Combat Uniform"

    https://camopedia.org/index.php?title=United_Kingdom

    So,between the jigs and reals,UK DPM in it's various guises,lasted a Looooooong time before being replace totally by MTP.
    Unlike NZ MCCU.
    I bet you expect me to disagree with you again.

    I'm not though. I'm going to take sone time to visit that excellent link you provided, and then get back to you, maybe in a year or so.
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    German 1: That is the bad news.

  5. #104
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  7. #105
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    The New Zealand Ministry Of Defence 2019 Annual Report

    https://www.defence.govt.nz/assets/p...ort-201819.pdf

    Fairly routine report but indicates that Fleet Tanker due next year, frigate upgrade complete in 2021, Antarctic Patrol Ship pushed out from 2023 to 2027. C-130J-30, P-8A and second tier MPA asset all arriving in 2023, with B757 replacement pushed out to 2028.

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  9. #106
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    The standard, depth and detail of that report is breathtaking in comparison to the shite the DoD publish. And all done with a staff of 150 compared to 380!!!

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  11. #107
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    $20Bn in Capital spending between now and 2030. If our shower gave us €20m it would make the news.
    How can a country with a similar population to us, a similar government, and a similar security profile (Larger mostly friendly military force next door, with occasional terrorism) manage to spend so much more?
    What's the secret?
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  12. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by TangoSierra View Post
    The standard, depth and detail of that report is breathtaking in comparison to the shite the DoD publish. And all done with a staff of 150 compared to 380!!!
    The big change compared to 10-15 years ago when the Ministry of Defence was in a mess is that around a quarter of that 150 include ex NZDF officers including the Deputy Sec who is a retired list Air Vice Marshal. NZDF staff officers at QF-4 plus are also seconded across to advise acquisition and capability projects.

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  14. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    How can a country with a similar population to us, a similar government, and a similar security profile (Larger mostly friendly military force next door, with occasional terrorism) manage to spend so much more?
    What's the secret?
    Geography. That next door neighbour is in fact the same distance as it is from Dublin to St Petersburg as the crow flies and the main trade markets in Asia are three to four times that distance. Those trade routes / SLOC's have to be protected and seen to be protected.

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  16. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anzac View Post
    The big change compared to 10-15 years ago when the Ministry of Defence was in a mess is that around a quarter of that 150 include ex NZDF officers including the Deputy Sec who is a retired list Air Vice Marshal. NZDF staff officers at QF-4 plus are also seconded across to advise acquisition and capability projects.
    Can you provide information on how and on what terms ExMilitary can join the civil service MoD please?

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  18. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by TangoSierra View Post
    Can you provide information on how and on what terms ExMilitary can join the civil service MoD please?
    There is no restriction. The term public service job is used in NZ as the old civil service ways per Yes Minister are more than a generation ago. The majority of jobs are mostly employment contracts within the public service these days and recruitment is even outsourced to headhunting firms. Some ministries including defence still have graduate entry schemes but even that is only there to try and capture some talent. Public service jobs are advertised publicly by law and people simply apply and go through the process including the VF classification 1,2 or 3 depending on security level. Employment terms are then negotiated with the individual. A lot of ex military leave for jobs within the civilian intelligence community or take off their uniform leave the service and then become a civilian NZDF employee and of course their VF level goes with them, which is part of the reason why they are sought after.

  19. #112
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anzac View Post
    There is no restriction. The term public service job is used in NZ as the old civil service ways per Yes Minister are more than a generation ago. The majority of jobs are mostly employment contracts within the public service these days and recruitment is even outsourced to headhunting firms. Some ministries including defence still have graduate entry schemes but even that is only there to try and capture some talent. Public service jobs are advertised publicly by law and people simply apply and go through the process including the VF classification 1,2 or 3 depending on security level. Employment terms are then negotiated with the individual. A lot of ex military leave for jobs within the civilian intelligence community or take off their uniform leave the service and then become a civilian NZDF employee and of course their VF level goes with them, which is part of the reason why they are sought after.
    Doubt they lose out on pension entitlements by doing so either

  20. #113
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    The RNZN retires two of the IPV's:
    https://navaltoday.com/2019/10/17/ne...atrol-vessels/

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  22. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    $20Bn in Capital spending between now and 2030. If our shower gave us €20m it would make the news.
    How can a country with a similar population to us, a similar government, and a similar security profile (Larger mostly friendly military force next door, with occasional terrorism) manage to spend so much more?
    What's the secret?
    It is always good to compare;

    New Zealand: Pop 4.7m, GDP $206bn, area 268,000 sq.km
    Rep of Ireland: Pop 4.9m, GDP $385bn, area 70,273 sq.km (Tip error)

    We don't have to start the discussion about is GDP the right way to measure of not but we can take it we are level or at least close if not above that of NZ.
    It would be nteresting to know how active their Ming & Co are?
    Last edited by EUFighter; 20th October 2019 at 14:58.

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  24. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by TangoSierra View Post
    The standard, depth and detail of that report is breathtaking in comparison to the shite the DoD publish. And all done with a staff of 150 compared to 380!!!
    More is not always better, there was something about "too many cooks...…"

  25. #116
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    It is always good to compare;

    New Zealand: Pop 4.7m, GDP $206bn, area 268,000 sq.km
    Rep of Ireland: Pop 4.9m, GDP $385bn, area 709,273 sq.km

    We don't have to start the discussion about is GDP the right way to measure of not but we can take it we are level or at least close if not above that of NZ.
    It would be nteresting to know how active their Ming & Co are?
    Well they are in a defence alliances ANZUS and FPDA

  26. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    It is always good to compare;

    New Zealand: Pop 4.7m, GDP $206bn, area 268,000 sq.km
    Rep of Ireland: Pop 4.9m, GDP $385bn, area 709,273 sq.km

    We don't have to start the discussion about is GDP the right way to measure of not but we can take it we are level or at least close if not above that of NZ.
    It would be nteresting to know how active their Ming & Co are?
    Might want to check your land area figures there. New Zealand is four times larger than Ireland 270 vs 70 + NI.

    NZ SAR region is also close to 11% of the entire planet

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  28. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    It is always good to compare;

    New Zealand: Pop 4.7m, GDP $206bn, area 268,000 sq.km
    Rep of Ireland: Pop 4.9m, GDP $385bn, area 709,273 sq.km

    We don't have to start the discussion about is GDP the right way to measure of not but we can take it we are level or at least close if not above that of NZ.
    It would be nteresting to know how active their Ming & Co are?
    New Zealand: Pop 4.7m, GDP $206bn, area 268,000 sq.km
    Rep of Ireland: Pop 4.9m, GDP $385bn, area 70,273 sq.km

  29. #119
    Rittmeister Herald's Avatar
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    New Zealand 46
    Ireland 14
    Last edited by Herald; 19th October 2019 at 14:13. Reason: Cos things got worser

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  31. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herald View Post
    New Zealand 46
    Ireland 14
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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  34. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    It is always good to compare;

    New Zealand: Pop 4.7m, GDP $206bn, area 268,000 sq.km
    Rep of Ireland: Pop 4.9m, GDP $385bn, area 709,273 sq.km

    We don't have to start the discussion about is GDP the right way to measure of not but we can take it we are level or at least close if not above that of NZ.
    It would be interesting to know how active their Ming & Co are?
    Actually the NZ population like Irelands is meant to hit 5 million next year. Your 4.7 mil figure was an estimate from an omnishambles of an online census held 18 months ago that only had an 85% response.

    GDP is not a good comparison as in the specific outlier case of Ireland as around a third of the accumulated GDP is accounting entries on the books of multi-nationals attracted by the very low corporate tax rate. Modified GNI* is a better comparison as it takes into respective account government debt levels, which generally sees both economies level out.

    Modified GNI* would also seem to make defence spending within Ireland look a bit better as the GDP based defence spend numbers at present are a little on the light side compared to the rest of Europe.

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  36. #123
    Sergeant Major EUFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anzac View Post
    Actually the NZ population like Irelands is meant to hit 5 million next year. Your 4.7 mil figure was an estimate from an omnishambles of an online census held 18 months ago that only had an 85% response.

    GDP is not a good comparison as in the specific outlier case of Ireland as around a third of the accumulated GDP is accounting entries on the books of multi-nationals attracted by the very low corporate tax rate. Modified GNI* is a better comparison as it takes into respective account government debt levels, which generally sees both economies level out.

    Modified GNI* would also seem to make defence spending within Ireland look a bit better as the GDP based defence spend numbers at present are a little on the light side compared to the rest of Europe.
    Cheers for the head-up on the census, and the parallel of the population sizes is such I can agree that both are for what matter it makes the same.

    As for GNP/GNI* as I said we can say we are around the same.
    Taking the values for 2018 NZ was $41.6k per capita, RoI was $46.2k per capita, so roughly the same ball- park area. To put that in relation to the average north EU countries there the value was $45.9 so RoI is exactly on the average. (Aus, Bel, Den, Fra, Fin, Ger, Neth, Swe) (GNI for all countries apart from RoI where GNI* is used)

    As for the defence spend this would then be 0.4%, still was below the target of most EU nations of 2%! or the average of 1.2%.

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  38. #124
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    Line of Defence magazine Winter 2019

    https://defsec.net.nz/2019/07/01/winter-2019/

    A good range of articles in this recent edition from C-27J's through to PRC expansion in the SCS.

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  40. #125
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    After a long gap in capability, today the new RNZN support ship was named HMNZS Aotearoa.
    https://twitter.com/nznavy/status/11...836809216?s=19
    It will be great to see this ship flying the flag of its country while bearing the proud country's ancestral name.
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