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  • #91
    TBH, Im not surprised.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Tadpole View Post
      Dan,
      Your clutching at straws:

      Correct but as already stated the military do not require an AOC and can do whatever their military authorities and Government handlers allow them to do. That means if they want to do HEMS they can do it. Once more, in this case it is about the operator, not the operation.
      Tad, easy there...my understanding of this is HEMS will require an AOC no matter what the military authorities think!! It also falls into Public Transport.
      The regulation around EASA protects public safety and duty of care.

      Hows about reading my post properly:
      This will be the first civil staff that are permanently part of the AC operation. The other passengers flew one leg and got off.
      Besides, by your rational, with the AC already carrying civil passengers they need to have an AOC, do they?? Exactly, they don't need one, QED.
      How about reading mine properly....i am talking about the present not the future. Its a public service as is SAR...why do CHC require to have an AOC then?

      PS, what happened to your ascertain that fire fighting would also be regulated by EASA? I like how you dropped that when actual regs are quoted to you.
      2 Irish AOC operators operate the fire fighting role on contract. The IAC operate a back up role based on Local Authority call

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      • #93
        Tad, easy there...my understanding of this is HEMS will require an AOC no matter what the military authorities think!! It also falls into Public Transport.
        The regulation around EASA protects public safety and duty of care
        Well Dan, Im afraid your just wrong. The military can and will do whatever they want.

        How about reading mine properly....i am talking about the present not the future. Its a public service as is SAR...why do CHC require to have an AOC then?
        Im sorry but the AC HEMS operation is what is being debated here, that hasnt happened yet hence its in the future. What the IAC do now is carry passengers as I have already stated. The future HEMS operation will have fulltime civil crew members, thats the issue.
        As for CHC they have an AOC so that they can carry out commercial operations such as Oil and Gas and passenger transportation. The SAR operation is carried out under an aerial work cerificate which is regulated by the IAA, not the JAA or EASA.

        2 Irish AOC operators operate the fire fighting role on contract. The IAC operate a back up role based on Local Authority cal
        Whats that got to do with anything? They hold AOCs which are regulated under JAA and soon to be EASA for commercial type operations yet the fire fighting portion of their operation is carried out under an Aerial Work certificate that is currently and will continue to be regulated by the NAA, in this case the IAA, NOT EASA or JAA.
        Last edited by Tadpole; 20 January 2012, 14:45. Reason: Didnt see all of Dan's post as its mixed up in the quotes

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        • #94
          Originally posted by morpheus View Post
          Why not get the medical corps to finally get someone trained to Paramedic Instructor level and start instructing medics to paramedic level instead of getting the likes of dublin fire brigade instructors to come out and teach them? Then once this is done replace the permie civvie staff with these guys. .. .. damn it sorry, i forgot, im possibly talking sense here.
          +1
          I went into an Italian restaurant and ordered dessert and they gave me tiramisu and a blindfolded horse and I said No, I said mask a pony (mascarpone)

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          • #95
            Dan,

            Tadpole is quite correct.

            An AOC holder may carry out operations covered by an Aerial Works Certificate. An Aerial Works certificate holder cannot carry out works requiring an AOC. As Fire Fighting and SAR are covered by Aerial Works, I don't see your point.

            Talking about AOC and EASA/JAR requirements is moot in any case. This HEMS activity will be carried out by the Air Corps who self regulate and have nothing to do with JAR.

            They can do HEMS,SAR and Fire Fighting and Spaceflight if they please without any JAR input.

            If this role had gone to a civilian operator, JAR OPS would of course apply.

            Comment


            • #96
              If the papers are to be believed it would appear Minister O'Reilly will make an announcement next week re Air Ambulance and Hems



              It would seem the commercial helicopter operators may as well close up shop as the AC seem to want to do their work.

              Air Ambulance is regarded by EASA and JAA as CAT the same as public transport. For someone to do that they need an AOC. Oh yea its Ireland so that does'nt count here. I wonder why then are Air Ambulance operations carried out by companies with AOC's in the rest of europe not the military. I think the reason they left SAR out of the new EASA regs was to allow SAR to be done by the military like the UK currently have the RAF. If the militry can do what they want they wouldnt have had to leave it out of the new EASA regs!
              The coast guard made their opinion on the AC doing SAR here pretty clear when someone ( an ex AC person i believe ) raised why the AC werent asked to do the service or part of it during the tender for the new contract.


              It would appear the Air corp can do whatever they fancy doing. Since they dont have any real military role to do with the 5 139's they have sitting in Bal, they do air ambulance in order to make it look like there is a reason for having them now that they are not kept busy flying ministers around anymore. Of course they have done it for years but they seem to be more interested in doing it now hence the 4 sets of crews on standby. When that leitrim girl needed to go to the uk for a liver transplant it was a pity the 139's they have couldnt fly to the UK at night, - must have been cheap knock offs that were made in china cos the ones Agusta make dont seem to have a problem doing it when operated by the civilian community.
              They also take them out for a bit of fire fighting now and again. Next they will want to do the Light house contract, powerline inspections and sure why not the gas pipeline patrol as well. They wouldnt need an AOC or oversight from the IAA for any of those jobs either would they?

              Sure maybe they could do scheduled flights between Ireland and europe and go into competition with Ryanair, they wouldnt need an AOC for that either cause their military and EASA/JAA rules dont apply to them. I wonder how much they would charge?


              Better let anyone thinking of becoming a helicopter pilot in ireland know that their only future is in the AC.

              Comment


              • #97
                Fenestron,welcome aboard.
                Whilst you feel it is not right that the AC have a God Given right to all things here aeronautical can you make some suggestions for a workable/effective and vfm air ambo service outside of the AC.eg do you reckon the SAR helis can take up the slack or should the volutary proposal linked to Bond be availed of.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Well said Danno

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by fenestron View Post
                    When that leitrim girl needed to go to the uk for a liver transplant it was a pity the 139's they have couldnt fly to the UK at night, - must have been cheap knock offs that were made in china cos the ones Agusta make dont seem to have a problem doing it when operated by the civilian community.
                    The 139s were grounded as part of a world wide grounding of 139s (apparantly the tail roter fell off a few in Brazil), so in fairness I don't think you can't really blame the Aer Corps for that.

                    Comment


                    • I think the reason they left SAR out of the new EASA regs was to allow SAR to be done by the military like the UK currently have the RAF. If the militry can do what they want they wouldnt have had to leave it out of the new EASA regs!
                      No, it was left out because it is impossible to write rules for an operation that effectively places an aircraft and crew in danger, even if it is to save lives. How do you regulate that? Answer you cant, so leave it out of EASA and let operators negotiate the operation through the local NAA as has always been the case. Nothing to do with the military.

                      I wonder why then are Air Ambulance operations carried out by companies with AOC's in the rest of europe not the military
                      Because:
                      a. The countries have the population density to support a charity operation or;
                      b. Drivers pay for the service through their insurance (Do you want more taxes) or;
                      c. The country inst broke and can support an operation.

                      Im no fan of military ops in the civil puddle, particularly when then there are enough mil ops to be done (Leb etc), but in this case their are only two operators capable of providing a service within existing infrastructure with minimal expenditure and that's the IAC or the CG.

                      The 139s were grounded as part of a world wide grounding of 139s
                      AFAIK the duty one was on an Air Amb flight from Tralee.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by fenestron View Post
                        It would appear the Air corp can do whatever they fancy doing. Since they dont have any real military role to do with the 5 139's they have sitting in Bal, they do air ambulance in order to make it look like there is a reason for having them now that they are not kept busy flying ministers around anymore. Of course they have done it for years but they seem to be more interested in doing it now hence the 4 sets of crews on standby. When that leitrim girl needed to go to the uk for a liver transplant it was a pity the 139's they have couldnt fly to the UK at night, - must have been cheap knock offs that were made in china cos the ones Agusta make dont seem to have a problem doing it when operated by the civilian community.
                        They also take them out for a bit of fire fighting now and again. Next they will want to do the Light house contract, powerline inspections and sure why not the gas pipeline patrol as well. They wouldnt need an AOC or oversight from the IAA for any of those jobs either would they?
                        If you do a very smal bit of research you will find your way-off the mark!

                        Comment


                        • A new national helicopter ambulance service provided by the Air Corps and the HSE will be used to fly patients to hospital from car crashes and other incidents when time is critical in getting a patient urgent medical treatment.

                          However, the new service, which will be launched after an agreement is finalised between the HSE and the Department of Defence, will not be the long sought-after HEMS (Helicopter Emergency Medical Service) air ambulance service used in almost every other EU country.

                          Instead it will be a limited service using a small Air Corps EC-135 helicopter based in Custume Barracks, Athlone, to cover largely the west of Ireland.

                          The service, where HSE paramedics will have the ability to call in an aeromedical mission for an ill patient who needs a speedy transfer to hospital, will not be available 24 hours a day, and it will not operate at night.


                          No need for NVG's if today's Sunday Independent is to be believed.

                          Comment


                          • EC-135, attending car accidents etc, daylight hours only; seems pretty standard fare for HEMS TBH.

                            Only questions I would have are:

                            1. If serving the West of Ireland surely it should be based in the errr West of Ireland?
                            2. Pretty disappointed that with the infrastructure, crew availability and as"Air Corps pilots are the only pilots within the state with the capability to fly using NVG" that they are not operating 24/7. Thats gonna leave some pretty big holes.
                            3. Also odd that the smallest fleet type with the most limited payload, range and speed is also being used instead of the 135. The 135 can do the job but the 139 could do it better. I wonder are there serviceability concerns with the 139 fleet.

                            Comment


                            • I agree Tadpole surely AW139 would be better suited? Is there a Hospital in Athlone? Can the EC135 do NVG?

                              Comment


                              • Happyman,
                                There is a hospital in Athlone but I am not sure what size or capability it is. Dont think it has a pad but TBH most of the calls although based in Athlone wont be back to Athlone. For example incident west of Athlone likely Galway hosp, North likely Cavan, East likely Dublin ish, South dont really know TBH.
                                But it is in the above scenarios that the 135 will be limited, 3/4 crew plus a patient plus HEMS kit wont leave a lot of juice to get from Athlone to an incident, wait on scene, onward to the nearest suitable hospital and then back to the nearest refueling point with reserves. Compound the problem with most airfields in the west now being closed in the early evening.
                                A potential scenario would be departing Athlone to the south west for an incident, waiting collecting patient, onward to Galway hosp, no fuel as airport closed, on to Shannon or back to Athlone for fuel unable to respond to a second call due low fuel. I think the 135 may have fuel issues with where it is based. 139 would be much more flexible and there 6 of them.
                                Also of consideration in marginal weather in all likelihood an IFR 'punch up' option wont exist due to fuel reserve issues.

                                Yes 135 is fully NVG capable.

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