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  • #46
    Then land in the field beside the road. It is as Goldie says....not rocket science.

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    • #47
      Hey Goldie , a real post, still slightly condecending but not as bad as the post building ''wit'' that went before.
      HEMS; Helicopter emergency midical service.
      Lifeport; Advanced Life Support (ALS) systems engineered for both fixed- and rotary wing aircraft.
      Stretcher; been on them, at least twice that I can remember, once thanks to the Irish Defence Force.
      helicopter; Ugly looking aircraft with whirley bits on top, traveled in them before you were born/hatched/created in a test tube, been in all the ones the Air Corps have ever owned/leased, ect. even been in the air in some of 'em.
      "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
      Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
      Illegitimi non carborundum

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Tadpole View Post
        Then land in the field beside the road. It is as Goldie says....not rocket science.
        I would agree with Tadpole on this, you can detail things right up to the point of impossablity, most of the time it may well be ''fly there and find out''
        That bus crash in Meath [5 fatalities] is a good, if tragic example. Stuff got done, simple as.
        "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
        Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
        Illegitimi non carborundum

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        • #49
          Stuff got done. Informally. Ad hoc, if you will.

          If the AC were to take up HEMS on a formal basis you can be sure that the service will be subject to a set of formal operating procedures and limitations. Second guessing how far they will go with that is a pointless exercise until we hear more.

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          • #50
            Jetjock the rules and limitations you refer to are already very well known. They are called JAR OPS 3.
            HEMS are a civilian role. It’s highly regulated within Europe and to operate within the HEMS definition an operator must have an approved HEMS AOC issued by the national authority (IAA). Part 145 approval for both the aircraft maintenance and the maintenance facility. And comply with rules and regulations as set out in JAR OPS in relation to HEMS operations. These rules cover everything from the required pilot hours to operate as PIC of a HEMS aircraft to launch limitations reference weather.

            What is being proposed in Ireland in relation to the Air Corp providing pilots and aircraft while the HSE supply the medical staff is not HEMS. Argue all you want. Agree or disagree.
            It’s more like an Irish solution to an Irish problem.
            Jobs for the boys, who have nothing else to do, except maybe military stuff, which is their job.
            Or a desperate organisation selling their wears to an even more desperate Minister in desperate times. Take your pick.
            But unless it’s operated within the JAR OPS rules its not HEMS.


            BB

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            • #51
              @tadpole, I'd imagine the criteria for a non-airfield landing would prefer a solid road, even a third-class one, over and above a wet Irish field. At least a road is a known quantity.
              @billybob, this project to include the Don certainly smells of job protection to me.

              With regard to the aforementioned serviceability, trying for 100% is fool's gold. Most airlines look for and achieve servicability/reliability of greater than 96% and get it. In reality, this means that if you have ten aircraft on hand on any day of the week, you can expect to fly eight or nine per rotation per day. A typical airliner will fly for eight hours a day, can easily do twelve and sixteen hours a day is common.It's rare that a snag takes as long as a day to fix, unless it's a damage issue or a delay for spares. I remember twice seeing eight Alouettes aloft, but it was only for a short time and, in both events, some were immediately grounded when they landed. The AC typically ran at about 60-70% availability. It's probably better now but they'd need to be generating 80% plus per day to compete with the real world.

              regards
              GttC

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              • #52
                I'd imagine the criteria for a non-airfield landing would prefer a solid road, even a third-class one, over and above a wet Irish field. At least a road is a known quantity.
                Of course you will only land somewhere that can support the aircraft but its a myth that the aircraft has to land on top of the casualty to be effective. Cant land beside them, then land up the road a bit, its not a reason not to use the 139. Besides the 139 in terms of footprint isnt hugely bigger and in terms of Class 1 departures actually has a smaller footprint due to its take off profile.

                The AC typically ran at about 60-70% availability. It's probably better now
                I wouldn't bet the house on it.

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                • #53
                  [quote]Besides the 139 in terms of footprint isnt hugely bigger[\quote]

                  Its 30% bigger!

                  AW139 footprint 16.66 meters, main rotor diameter 13.8 meters
                  EC135 footprint 12.16 meters, main rotor diameter 10.2 meters

                  source
                  AW139

                  and
                  EC135
                  Last edited by morpheus; 18 January 2012, 16:23.
                  "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
                  "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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                  • #54
                    Heard Dublin Coastguard did a HEMS job somewhere near Trim the other night.

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                    • #55
                      Its 30% bigger!

                      AW139 footprint 16.66 meters, main rotor diameter 13.8 meters
                      EC135 footprint 12.16 meters, main rotor diameter 10.2 meters
                      Oh Wow!! You need a field that's a whole 15ft bigger!! God bless me how will you ever find a field that big in Ireland?

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                      • #56
                        Had Surrey HEMS chopper arrive in my town recently for a RTA - circled and ID'd the RTA, found closest field to drop off medical crew. When the decision was made to CASEVAC a patient the chopper, after local police imput, flew to a second location, a small public park, and patient was wheeled/carried to second site. As long as the chopper is reasonably accessible, it doesn't have to land on a road.

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                        • #57
                          Hi All,

                          Long time watcher first time posting!!

                          Interesting thread, The old AL3 were cramped and difficult to work in from what i recall (especially in the Alpine/French mtn role). The front Left seat turned for the crewman/Medic and then the Doc and Nurse sat next to each other, and various monitoring equipment was hung around the cabin or attached to the stretcher in various AD hoc ways. When it came to treatment or a requirement for serious medical intervention (De fibrillation, airway adjuncts etc) what u had was a crewman and doctor with nurse trying to apply their trades with sometimes mixed results. But we continued on cause it was for the good of the people that the service was maintained, good for the crews to have a role, and it was all we were going to get with regard to what AC type we had.

                          In the UK the Bo 105 was used for a period (and might still be) by Air Med in Hampshire, i took the time to talk to the crews one day and asked about practicality of the AC and lay out. It was a seriously neg review, and from what i was shown the AL3 had more room in it!!

                          The AW139 when fitted for the role is a good machine, i suspect the AC are using the 135 cause of serviceability and crew availabilities, plus the ongoing issues with the 139s is a worry, but apparently AW are working on a new tail blade design to work out the kinks...

                          The use of the HSE paramedics is not a surprise as the AC have not invested into the training of their crews to the old level which was Paramedic. From what i hear they only have 2 state registered paramedics from the old school crews that were there. But if you believe the stories, the AC management recruited or attempted recruitment directly from the Army Medical Corps due to the cost to paying NASC (National Ambulance Service College) the money to train the crews up. (not to mention the time away from the base to complete the intensive course content.) Also i think (i stand to be corrected) that a Paramedic cannot hand a seriously injured casualty over to a "lesser grade" as in EMT.

                          It will be interesting to see what the level of cover will be, availability, working hours etc that they will provide. Indeed I think there will be a huge spotlight on them from all angles.

                          If it saves life's I am for it, if its yet another attempt my the HSE to make them look good cause of all the front line cuts,,,... then I fear life's will be lost and the AC will become a scapegoat for their Government Masters.

                          DITH
                          Hopefully the mayan's got it right and were all on a one way ticket outta here!!

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Tadpole View Post
                            Oh Wow!! You need a field that's a whole 15ft bigger!! God bless me how will you ever find a field that big in Ireland?
                            It still limits the 139 more than the 135, especially at night and in proximity to buildings, trees, on country roadsides or pylons etc
                            "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
                            "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              No Morpheus, it doesn't. The reality is that if you are landing in an area that's big enough for a 40' helicopter but too small for a 55' helicopter I would suggest you shouldn't be there in the 40' helicopter either. What is limiting is the payload of the 135 Vs the 139. You will have to make compromises between pilots / crew / medics and fuel, not a good place to be in a dynamic operation like HEMS esp in today's Ireland where refueling points are becoming few and far between due to regional airport cutbacks.

                              Have the medics run 100 yards from a field up the road or run short of fuel? Give me the fuel anyday.

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                              • #60
                                fair enough, just contributing to the debate, what do i know, im just a grunt with a passing interest in things that try to stay airborne.
                                "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
                                "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

                                Comment

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