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  • Oh what's that big white thing on the Chiefs shoulder again in your pic ? I was referring to a mindset by the way...not the actual dress reg.....an OF 5 doesn't command anything in the DF, the NS and AC boys are staff officers ( except when the boss is on leave) , as are the DFHQ types,.... the Bde EO commands similarly when the GOC is in the caravan in Courtown for his leave....whilst OF 5 in the NS or AC is great experience .... How does it compare for strategic leadership to D SPB or D Ops..... My point is that these are the roles that NS and AC offrs should aspire to and should fill...... Not IC fuel or tyres in Baldonnel or Haulbowline

    Comment


    • There are two distinct chain of command in Haulbowline, at the top, it ends with two captains. One is an engineer, the other a navigator. Each is in charge of their respective areas of expertise. Colonels in the army may be the GoCs sub, but that is not the case in the NS.
      Strategic leadership? Don't make me laugh!. D Cav has done well in ordering armoured vehicles that will spend most of their time on the back of a low loader. D Arty has been fantastic at maintaining more batteries than there were guns. D Transport has been to the fore in making every driver in the DF's life a misery, and making it impossible to qualify anyone on anything. And before someone says he isn't just transport any more, well maybe I can add to his CV the mess that has been the clothing procurement and issuing system throughout the defence forces. I could go through each of the colonel directors in the Army and point out their uselessness, but there would still be another six or seven colonels who have no useful purpose.
      There was an old joke that went : What do you call a Commandant who couldn't get a job in civvy street? COLONEL.
      OCNOC Is the Captain (OF5) with overall responsibility for Naval Operations. He started as a deck cadet, went on to command every ship in the fleet until finally commanding the Flagship as a Commander. He knows the capability of the fleet, and has overall command of where it is and what it does. He has a number of Commanders under him who in turn command Fleet operations, Shore OPS, FORST etc
      OCNSC is the captain with overall responsibility for Naval Support. He started his Naval career in the engine room, and now also holds the position of Naval engineering superintendant and supervises the logistics, Engineering, PSS, Maintenance, WEU etc. As top level marine engineer, he is responsible for signing off on the qualifications of every other engineer and technician in the Naval Service.

      As for the Piece of string on the shoulder of the CoS, you will find it is worn by any number of corps in the df depending on the circumstances. As a Groundpounder, I wore one on many occasions.
      I feel sorry for the EOs in the Army who only have a job to do when their boss is away.

      I'm sure when the Admiral becomes CoS he will give colonels a proper job to do, and maybe get rid of the rest of the deadweight. If they are lucky and useful enough he may even give them proper jobs in the Naval Service. I'm sure their years in Jumpers and cream shirts drinking coffee in the officers mess will serve them well when they are in wellies on the bottom of the drydock explaining to the contractor that the boot topping is the wrong shade of red.
      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

      Comment


      • OC Inf Sch & D Inf is a Col

        Plus all the Directors have a small staff they command.

        Comment


        • However there are 12 OF6-9 and 41 OF5 in the DF. It seems excessive

          Comment


          • Na grohmiti you are raving, all you have to do is open your eye and do a critical review of the appointments and the holders of those on the base. As you have done with the Army, some of which we can agree on. For people to go around an point and laugh at the mess the NS has made in some cases. But you know if you are on the base some of the secrets quietly hid so well. Some of which are clankers, so come down off your high horse.
            Last edited by holdfast; 21 June 2015, 11:50.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
              There are two distinct chain of command in Haulbowline, at the top, it ends with two captains. One is an engineer, the other a navigator. Each is in charge of their respective areas of expertise. Colonels in the army may be the GoCs sub, but that is not the case in the NS.
              Strategic leadership? Don't make me laugh!. D Cav has done well in ordering armoured vehicles that will spend most of their time on the back of a low loader. D Arty has been fantastic at maintaining more batteries than there were guns. D Transport has been to the fore in making every driver in the DF's life a misery, and making it impossible to qualify anyone on anything. And before someone says he isn't just transport any more, well maybe I can add to his CV the mess that has been the clothing procurement and issuing system throughout the defence forces. I could go through each of the colonel directors in the Army and point out their uselessness, but there would still be another six or seven colonels who have no useful purpose.
              There was an old joke that went : What do you call a Commandant who couldn't get a job in civvy street? COLONEL.
              OCNOC Is the Captain (OF5) with overall responsibility for Naval Operations. He started as a deck cadet, went on to command every ship in the fleet until finally commanding the Flagship as a Commander. He knows the capability of the fleet, and has overall command of where it is and what it does. He has a number of Commanders under him who in turn command Fleet operations, Shore OPS, FORST etc
              OCNSC is the captain with overall responsibility for Naval Support. He started his Naval career in the engine room, and now also holds the position of Naval engineering superintendant and supervises the logistics, Engineering, PSS, Maintenance, WEU etc. As top level marine engineer, he is responsible for signing off on the qualifications of every other engineer and technician in the Naval Service.

              As for the Piece of string on the shoulder of the CoS, you will find it is worn by any number of corps in the df depending on the circumstances. As a Groundpounder, I wore one on many occasions.
              I feel sorry for the EOs in the Army who only have a job to do when their boss is away.

              I'm sure when the Admiral becomes CoS he will give colonels a proper job to do, and maybe get rid of the rest of the deadweight. If they are lucky and useful enough he may even give them proper jobs in the Naval Service. I'm sure their years in Jumpers and cream shirts drinking coffee in the officers mess will serve them well when they are in wellies on the bottom of the drydock explaining to the contractor that the boot topping is the wrong shade of red.
              good description ,, as when mm gets in charge things will change ..

              Comment


              • The more things change the more things stay the same

                Comment


                • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                  There are two distinct chain of command in Haulbowline, at the top, it ends with two captains. One is an engineer, the other a navigator. Each is in charge of their respective areas of expertise. Colonels in the army may be the GoCs sub, but that is not the case in the NS.
                  Strategic leadership? Don't make me laugh!. D Cav has done well in ordering armoured vehicles that will spend most of their time on the back of a low loader. D Arty has been fantastic at maintaining more batteries than there were guns. D Transport has been to the fore in making every driver in the DF's life a misery, and making it impossible to qualify anyone on anything. And before someone says he isn't just transport any more, well maybe I can add to his CV the mess that has been the clothing procurement and issuing system throughout the defence forces. I could go through each of the colonel directors in the Army and point out their uselessness, but there would still be another six or seven colonels who have no useful purpose.
                  There was an old joke that went : What do you call a Commandant who couldn't get a job in civvy street? COLONEL.
                  OCNOC Is the Captain (OF5) with overall responsibility for Naval Operations. He started as a deck cadet, went on to command every ship in the fleet until finally commanding the Flagship as a Commander. He knows the capability of the fleet, and has overall command of where it is and what it does. He has a number of Commanders under him who in turn command Fleet operations, Shore OPS, FORST etc
                  OCNSC is the captain with overall responsibility for Naval Support. He started his Naval career in the engine room, and now also holds the position of Naval engineering superintendant and supervises the logistics, Engineering, PSS, Maintenance, WEU etc. As top level marine engineer, he is responsible for signing off on the qualifications of every other engineer and technician in the Naval Service.

                  As for the Piece of string on the shoulder of the CoS, you will find it is worn by any number of corps in the df depending on the circumstances. As a Groundpounder, I wore one on many occasions.
                  I feel sorry for the EOs in the Army who only have a job to do when their boss is away.

                  I'm sure when the Admiral becomes CoS he will give colonels a proper job to do, and maybe get rid of the rest of the deadweight. If they are lucky and useful enough he may even give them proper jobs in the Naval Service. I'm sure their years in Jumpers and cream shirts drinking coffee in the officers mess will serve them well when they are in wellies on the bottom of the drydock explaining to the contractor that the boot topping is the wrong shade of red.
                  Oh boy where do we start.... First of all my tongue was firmly in cheek about the OF5s of the AC and NS and their respective roles and responsibilities. Secondly, I seriously respect the pride any member of the DF has in their service however where I do start raise an eyebrow is where one service starts to believe they are superior in every respect to all others and are the only ones with decent officers or enlisted personnel ( or everyone else is a gobsxxte).

                  Some of your stuff Grohmití is stuck in the late 80s or 90s and about three re-orgs ago, out of touch with the modern DF and inaccurate. D TVMS ( I think it his new name, the old D Tpt) isn't involved in clothing procurement, he does transport procurement. D Ord in cooperation with J4 does clothing...... And haven't worn a lot of it at home, overseas or on courses recently, a lot of it is quite bloody good ( ironically the biggest crib on clothing I have heard in recent years in the new Navy working dress rig from my sailor buddies) Whilst I take your point on driver regulation , a lot of that is coming from govt or Brussels. D Cav and D Arty who no longer exist and essentially went in the 98 reorg ( D Combat Support and ISTAR nowadays and I think the current one is Inf, outrageous) had very little influence and did do some useful procurement for their Corps . Most of the Armour I have seen recently has been on overseas deployments where particularly in UNDOF it saved many lives. The Arty used to have 10 Regts and a Depot and School, now it has 2 Regts and a school which is only a small part of mil col..... Way to go D Arty, if you existed. Similarly Army and AC senior officers and NCOs are not DE commissioned as D Ops, CAS Ops or RSM of the Mil Col, they all have filled a lot of roles and gained great experience on the way up just like their NS equivalents. NCOs with the current promotion will have to follow a box ticking route too, which ain't great IMO.

                  Our new D COS Ops, by way of example ..... Was a Pl Comd at home and overseas, Coy 2IC home and overseas, Coy Comd home and overseas, Cadet Class officer, Bn Comd home and overseas,SO and SSO and DJ 1 in DFHQ , SSO overseas..... And a Bde Comd, I'm sure you would agree he is eminently qualified for his new role. The original point I have been trying to make is that NS and AC personnel need exposure to working in DFHQ ( corporate HQ) at a strategic level in order for us to have a more effective Defence Force.

                  An Army Bde EO nowadays ( as opposed to the 80s) is in keeping with international best practice , the chief of ( the) staff ie they coordinate the work and staff functions of all the staff of Bde HQ.... Which consider each one covers a half of the country, I'm sure they are kept busy.

                  I am on record as saying that I am seriously looking forward to MM elevation and leadership..... But I don't see a sea change( excuse the pun) in how things work or happen, too many stakeholders, PDFORRA and RACO, the DOD, other competitor departments and organisations, lawyers and no money, it took about three years to get the new NCO system in place and about another ten till we get it right...... The DF is a supertanker set on a particular course by the state and its leadership..... Nobody in uniform will change that's to any significant degree ( I look forward to being wrong).... Cols being sacked.....Seriously? I admire and respect your passion for your service , I share it for the Army but also the entire Defence Forces.

                  Comment


                  • Nice post with some issues to chew over.
                    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                      A recent change, to pacify RACO, I believe.
                      Actually to keep the current docs sp out of the competition three years ago

                      Comment


                      • I fear you are correct Dogwatch .... I am open to correction but I think we are in the anomalous position of some Cols/Capts NS eligible for D Cos Sp and two star but not eligible for one star...... Quare system !

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Jack Booted Man View Post
                          Oh boy where do we start.... First of all my tongue was firmly in cheek about the OF5s of the AC and NS and their respective roles and responsibilities. Secondly, I seriously respect the pride any member of the DF has in their service however where I do start raise an eyebrow is where one service starts to believe they are superior in every respect to all others and are the only ones with decent officers or enlisted personnel ( or everyone else is a gobsxxte).

                          Some of your stuff Grohmití is stuck in the late 80s or 90s and about three re-orgs ago, out of touch with the modern DF and inaccurate. D TVMS ( I think it his new name, the old D Tpt) isn't involved in clothing procurement, he does transport procurement. D Ord in cooperation with J4 does clothing...... And haven't worn a lot of it at home, overseas or on courses recently, a lot of it is quite bloody good ( ironically the biggest crib on clothing I have heard in recent years in the new Navy working dress rig from my sailor buddies) Whilst I take your point on driver regulation , a lot of that is coming from govt or Brussels. D Cav and D Arty who no longer exist and essentially went in the 98 reorg ( D Combat Support and ISTAR nowadays and I think the current one is Inf, outrageous) had very little influence and did do some useful procurement for their Corps . Most of the Armour I have seen recently has been on overseas deployments where particularly in UNDOF it saved many lives. The Arty used to have 10 Regts and a Depot and School, now it has 2 Regts and a school which is only a small part of mil col..... Way to go D Arty, if you existed. Similarly Army and AC senior officers and NCOs are not DE commissioned as D Ops, CAS Ops or RSM of the Mil Col, they all have filled a lot of roles and gained great experience on the way up just like their NS equivalents. NCOs with the current promotion will have to follow a box ticking route too, which ain't great IMO.

                          Our new D COS Ops, by way of example ..... Was a Pl Comd at home and overseas, Coy 2IC home and overseas, Coy Comd home and overseas, Cadet Class officer, Bn Comd home and overseas,SO and SSO and DJ 1 in DFHQ , SSO overseas..... And a Bde Comd, I'm sure you would agree he is eminently qualified for his new role. The original point I have been trying to make is that NS and AC personnel need exposure to working in DFHQ ( corporate HQ) at a strategic level in order for us to have a more effective Defence Force.

                          An Army Bde EO nowadays ( as opposed to the 80s) is in keeping with international best practice , the chief of ( the) staff ie they coordinate the work and staff functions of all the staff of Bde HQ.... Which consider each one covers a half of the country, I'm sure they are kept busy.

                          I am on record as saying that I am seriously looking forward to MM elevation and leadership..... But I don't see a sea change( excuse the pun) in how things work or happen, too many stakeholders, PDFORRA and RACO, the DOD, other competitor departments and organisations, lawyers and no money, it took about three years to get the new NCO system in place and about another ten till we get it right...... The DF is a supertanker set on a particular course by the state and its leadership..... Nobody in uniform will change that's to any significant degree ( I look forward to being wrong).... Cols being sacked.....Seriously? I admire and respect your passion for your service , I share it for the Army but also the entire Defence Forces.


                          Maybe it would be an idea to make the Director vacancies open to all the DF. As the current DCIS is an Infantry office all his career, surely an AC pilot or engineer or an NS deck or engineering officer could do a directors job no problem. As i said before these positions need to change to DF positions along with DFHQ staff positions. It will make for a more integrated DF in the long term. I believe firmly that the best person for the job should be appointed, regardless of the colour of his/her uniform. I dont think that any one service is better than the others, but i do believe that the Army has had it their own way for a long time and that each branch of the DF should have a even chunk of funding / personnel etc.

                          Comment


                          • The fact is, everyone in the DF does the same C&S course, regardless of branch. This should prequalify them to cross the floor if a vacancy exists that they are best qualified for.
                            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                            Comment


                            • Is it as simple as you seem to make it out? Would not the NS & AC lose out, if all their good officers and NCO's headed off to DFHQ. Plus do many actually want to move from Cork, to Dublin and Newbridge.

                              Comment


                              • I would say so. Many reach an age when their relatives are elderly and they would prefer not to be 4 hours drive away. While Haulbowline is otherwise nestled in the most perfect part of Ireland, it is quite a commute if you originally come from Galway, or any other place where officers come from. The fact is the NS and AC are already losing out at OF3 level. There is nowhere within the service for them to go, as vacancies in the service are few, and rare at commander level. Worse when those holding the 13 OF4 appointment are young....all the 45 OF3s are waiting for them to resign/retire/die. Most of the current OF3s in the NS are in their early 40s, with children of schoolgoing age.
                                Its a case of them staying on at Lt-Cdr having done the C&S course and stagnating while the junior Lt-Cdrs get the few seagoing positions, or broadening their horizons, seeing the bigger picture of their career in the DF, and applying for a position within the organisation that they are qualified to do.
                                Once you are qualified for an appointment, you should be free to apply for it, regardless of the colour of your uniform. The organisation benefits in the long term.
                                For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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