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Thread: Cadetship 2012

  1. #1
    Private 3* Chasseur-Alpin's Avatar
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    Cadetship 2012

    Hi,

    Anybody here have an idea on how many cadetship places will be on offer in 2012? Specifically for the Army.

    The last few years they've taken 21 for the army. Does anyone think it will be more this year? Perhaps a full platoon?

    Any opinions welcome

    Thanks
    SWEAT SAVES BLOOD

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    From a written answer in the Dail [Wednesday 15th February 2012]

    546. Deputy Terence Flanagan asked the Minister for Defence if there will be a competition this year to recruit cadets to the Army; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8192/12]

    547. Deputy Seán Kenny asked the Minister for Defence if recruitment to the Defence Forces will occur in 2012. [8211/12]

    552. Deputy Seán Kenny asked the Minister for Defence if there will be an Army cadetship recruitment this year; and if so, the date of same. [8233/12]

    Minister for Defence (Deputy Alan Shatter): I propose to take Questions Nos. 546, 547 and 552 together.
    The Government has decided to accept my recommendations that the strength of the Permanent Defence Force will be maintained at 9,500. I believe that this is the optimum level required to fulfil all roles assigned by Government.

    I am advised by the Military Authorities that the strength of the Permanent Defence Force at 31 December, 2011, the latest date for which details are available, was 9,438 comprising 7,650 Army, 791 Air Corps and 997 Naval Service.

    It is my intention that targeted recruitment will continue in 2012, within the resource envelope allocated to Defence, so as to maintain the Government approved strength of the Defence Forces. The Permanent Defence Force is not at present seeking applications for General Service Enlistment. If a decision is taken to hold a competition in 2012, details will be available on the Defence Forces websitewww.military.ie .

    I would expect that the question of a cadet class in 2012 will be considered in the context of the re-organisation of the Defence Forces now necessary to meet the operational requirements of the Defence Forces within the new establishment of 9,500. It is too early to confirm if there will be a cadet class this year.


    Is this any guide !!!!!!

  3. #3
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    @ Chasseur-Alpin; In the context that many sacred cows are being slaughtered left right and centre in the DF at the moment I think there is a real possibility that there will be no Cadet Class this year. Sorry to be negative about it, but I think you should plan for the worst and maybe you might be pleasantly surprised.

    This has been threatened in the past but never happened. The cornerstone of the argument has been the mentoring and dynamic between the senior and junior class. However, the current cycle of is one of shortest in a long time and this means that there is minimal overlap between classes today.

    Many would say that the real reason for fighting for a Cadet Class each year was to preserve all the instructor posts for a 'two class' school. Lt Col OIC and Sgt Major, a significant A and Q staff, Two Comdt Class Officers, Two CS's, and Capt/Lt/Sgt/Cpl instructors. For one significant period each year only one class would be in situ so an instructor load for one class was shared among a instructor strength for two classes. That has always been looked upon with envy by other units and I would imagine that has been amplified recently. These folks might be quite happy to see no Cadet Class if it meant some short term repsite for their own unit by Cadet School staff being re-allocated during any hiatus. Longer term, with a 15/18 month cycle, and more CFRs, there might be a move to a "one class" school and that would mean no more annual intakes.

    Comparatively, the DF did well since the embargo so I don't think they'll be in a strong postion to argue their case. The GS have stopped all recruitment and even when they start up again it will be over two years before those personnel complete their training.
    Last edited by Jessup; 17th February 2012 at 17:13.

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    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    The fact that a larger percentage of cadets are graduates in recent years has shortened the average cadetship. I notice the graduation date has become a movable feast also. There was a time when all DF cadets got commissioned at the same time, and the senior class were on there own for a short few weeks only.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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    What's the point in commissioning and training new junior leaders if there's no troops in the Units for them to lead?

    Seriously.

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    The last general service recruitment embargo was lifted in 1994 after several years. During that period, annual Cadet intakes continued. I'm not saying that was right or wrong, it's just what happened.

    Can the same argument be made for any course that leads to a leadership role or elevation in leadership. No need for any new Pl Comdrs then there's no need for any new Section Comdrs or Pl Sgts? Don't run those courses either? Up until the mid 90's you weren't automatically promoted Cpl after your Pots Cse. There was a significant process in order to get permission to fill a vacancy. You'd see guys taking the stripes off their uniforms after the passing out parade and having to wait until permission came through months or even years later.

    The DF has been through this before and it survived. Some would say that it's got even better in many regards. It's a shit sandwich for everyone at the moment but I don't think the fact that someone else having to take a bite makes your sandwich taste any better?

    Floggings will continue until morale improves!
    Last edited by Jessup; 17th February 2012 at 18:48.

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    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessup View Post
    The cornerstone of the argument has been the mentoring and dynamic between the senior and junior class. However, the current cycle of is one of shortest in a long time and this means that there is minimal overlap between classes today.

    Many would say that the real reason for fighting for a Cadet Class each year was to preserve all the instructor posts for a 'two class' school. Lt Col OIC and Sgt Major, a significant A and Q staff, Two Comdt Class Officers, Two CS's, and Capt/Lt/Sgt/Cpl instructors. For one significant period each year only one class would be in situ so an instructor load for one class was shared among a instructor strength for two classes. That has always been looked upon with envy by other units and I would imagine that has been amplified recently. These folks might be quite happy to see no Cadet Class if it meant some short term repsite for their own unit by Cadet School staff being re-allocated during any hiatus. Longer term, with a 15/18 month cycle, and more CFRs, there might be a move to a "one class" school and that would mean no more annual intakes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    The fact that a larger percentage of cadets are graduates in recent years has shortened the average cadetship. I notice the graduation date has become a movable feast also. There was a time when all DF cadets got commissioned at the same time, and the senior class were on there own for a short few weeks only.
    When a cadetship was 21 months, the 2 classes would have had 11 months together. Since the change to 15 months they have..... 3 months together.

    I say there are many in the DFTC (like elsewhere double and triple jobbing).

    I'd assume the "downtime" between classes is used to upskill, leave, courses etc.

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    The logic is sound DeV but in practice there are often different start dates so the 'overlap' can vary. A junior class might start later than their senior class so would had to suffer them for less than other classes or more horribly the other way around! Anyway, the point regarding the much shorter overlap stands and it dilutes the case for avoiding a break in intake.

    In relation to double and triple jobbing, I imagine it's at epidemic proportions in the DFTC but "The College" don't do double and triple jobbing. But in this brave new world you never know? EG, I saw pictures of the ARW going a GOH in the DFTC recently! I saw the pictures recently, don't know when the GOH was.

    Staff were supposed to take the majority of their leave at the same time as the students; Christmas, a fortnight in the Summer and the end of the course. The fact that 'downtime' could now be nine months would suggest that this will change if it has not done so already.

    Too much looking backwards is bad for progress
    Last edited by Jessup; 17th February 2012 at 19:32.

  11. #9
    Private 3* Chasseur-Alpin's Avatar
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    Thanks very much for the info and opinions everyone. Keep them coming.
    SWEAT SAVES BLOOD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    The fact that a larger percentage of cadets are graduates in recent years has shortened the average cadetship. I notice the graduation date has become a movable feast also. There was a time when all DF cadets got commissioned at the same time, and the senior class were on there own for a short few weeks only.
    Back when the financial crisis first bit, two classes were taken in very late in the year as the decision if there would be recruitment or not was put off. As a result a few recent classes entered towards the end of 09/10 respectively and the dates for commissioning and major exercises all changed. The most recent intake has gone back to the traditional timetable as such.

    The Cadetship has not changed as a result of graduates, it changed to attract them into the organisation. Indeed, you could argue that it changed because it went the way that most military forces do things - they use the medium of Infantry tactics to teach leadership under pressure with specific training following latter thus resulting in much shorter cadetships. This contrasts with the "every officer a fully fledged platoon commander (up to wpns pl)" level in the past and its associated costs. The brits for instance don't even cover the GPMG at sandhurst and meet it for the first time on the PCBC if they're infantry. Obviously their doctrinal deployment of said weapon is obviously a bit different.

  13. #11
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by northie View Post
    Indeed, you could argue that it changed because it went the way that most military forces do things - they use the medium of Infantry tactics to teach leadership under pressure with specific training following latter thus resulting in much shorter cadetships. This contrasts with the "every officer a fully fledged platoon commander (up to wpns pl)" level in the past and its associated costs. The brits for instance don't even cover the GPMG at sandhurst and meet it for the first time on the PCBC if they're infantry. Obviously their doctrinal deployment of said weapon is obviously a bit different.
    To the best of my knowledge, newly commissioned officiers (of all corps (thats the bit I'm not sure about)) now do the PSO Pln Cmdrs Course after commissioning which covers a lot of the stuff that was taken out to reduce the cadetship from 21 to 15 months - one of them being the ILSW Instrs Cse I think.

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    Defence Forces Recruitment

    Tuesday, 21 February 2012

    Question 554. Deputy Terence Flanagan asked the Minister for Defence if there will be cadetship recruitment in 2012; if so, the date of same; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9143/12]

    Minister for Defence (Deputy Alan Shatter): The Government has decided to accept my recommendations that the strength of the Permanent Defence Force will be maintained at 9,500. I believe that this is the optimum level required to fulfil all roles assigned by Government. I am advised by the Military Authorities that the strength of the Permanent Defence Force at 31 December, 2011, the latest date for which details are available, was 9,438 comprising 7,650 Army, 791 Air Corps and 997 Naval Service.

    It is my intention that targeted recruitment will continue in 2012, within the resource envelope allocated to Defence, so as to maintain the Government approved strength of the Defence Forces.

    I would expect that the question of a cadet class in 2012 will be considered in the context of the re-organisation of the Defence Forces now necessary to meet the operational requirements of the Defence Forces within the new establishment of 9,500. It is too early to confirm if there will be a cadet class this year.

  15. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    To the best of my knowledge, newly commissioned officiers (of all corps (thats the bit I'm not sure about)) now do the PSO Pln Cmdrs Course after commissioning which covers a lot of the stuff that was taken out to reduce the cadetship from 21 to 15 months - one of them being the ILSW Instrs Cse I think.
    Negative on ILSW instructors in recent times.

  16. #14
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    Positive News for you Chasseur-Alpin. Cadet Class will go ahead in 2012.

    See post 1522, answer to Q174 http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com...l=1#post366336

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