Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Panhard AML

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #91
    Click image for larger version

Name:	PanhardM3_Dujardin1.JPG
Views:	1
Size:	135.5 KB
ID:	698378
    Last edited by hptmurphy; 9 December 2020, 21:55.
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
      It is a pretty decent gun, all things considered. Adding a laser rangefinder and passive night sights to ours made them a worthwhile weapon. Unfortunately its weakness was sticking it all on top of a tiny but heavy hull moved about by an underpowered 2litre Peugeot diesel. Probably still a useful weapon against "technicals" but would not survive long against modern armour. If you can't kill with the first shot, you won't get a second try.
      Don't forget no power steering and no servo assistance on the brakes...that being said I'd still hop in and drive one tomorrow. Have great memories of the gunnery and driving courses I did in them

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by UniSol View Post
        Don't forget no power steering and no servo assistance on the brakes...that being said I'd still hop in and drive one tomorrow. Have great memories of the gunnery and driving courses I did in them
        Mowag drivers who never experienced Panhard don't know how good they have it.
        It's like the difference between sleeping in a damp sleeping bag in december under a leaky bivvy bag, or sleeping in your own bed...
        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
          Mowag drivers who never experienced Panhard don't know how good they have it.
          It's like the difference between sleeping in a damp sleeping bag in december under a leaky bivvy bag, or sleeping in your own bed...
          'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
          'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
          Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
          He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
          http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
            Mowag drivers who never experienced Panhard don't know how good they have it.
            It's like the difference between sleeping in a damp sleeping bag in december under a leaky bivvy bag, or sleeping in your own bed...
            Pre Monty Python sketch from the TV who show At Last The 1948 Show starring Tim Brooke-Taylor, John Cleese, Graham Chapman and Marty Feldman.


            Damp sleeping bag? Luxury!

            Comment


            • #96
              Four Yorkshiremen discuss "the bad old days" and how young people don't properly appreciate what their elders had to go through. Hilarious.

              Comment


              • #97
                Here's a bargain! £4.99 for the Haynes Manual for the AML
                https://www.tankmuseumshop.org/produ...-haynes-manual
                Last edited by Flamingo; 28 October 2022, 17:43.
                'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
                'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
                Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
                He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
                http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

                Comment


                • #98
                  Brazil has decided to upgrade and retain about 30% of its Cascavel Armoured Car fleet (bigger and Greyhound inspired, but a close cousin of the AML90) upgrades include basically everything but the armour kit and the 90mm LP gun.

                  Presumably this is to supplement their planned Centauro/ Boxer tank destroyer fleet and the locally developed Guarani wheeled FV family.

                  One big improvement that doesn't have a parallel in the Irish AML upgrade program is the addition of an ATGM launcher to the turret.

                  The rest of the package is power plant, suspension, C3I, targeting computer, servo operated turret, optics and reconditioning the 90mm gun.

                  Just thought it was interesting to:
                  1. See a vehicle of similar age and role to the AML likely to soldier on in a modernising force for another couple of decades
                  2. A contemporary vehicle upgrade package that didn't try to put additional armour on
                  "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    What will they be using theirs for? Internal security?
                    Cascavel is a more modern car than the AML, which dated from the late 1940s. By comparison, Engesa rebuilt the greyhound, with a modern drivetrain and armament from the AML90. All they seem to be doing is the same upgrades as we did with our AML in the early 2000s.(apart from servo)
                    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                      What will they be using theirs for? Internal security?
                      Cascavel is a more modern car than the AML, which dated from the late 1940s. By comparison, Engesa rebuilt the greyhound, with a modern drivetrain and armament from the AML90. All they seem to be doing is the same upgrades as we did with our AML in the early 2000s.(apart from servo)
                      Work friend is former Brazilian army. Most of their work is stuff police or border guard should be doing. It wouldn't make a difference what year the vehicle they're driving around in was built

                      Comment


                      • Ideal so, you just need to have something better than the criminal gangs.
                        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                        Comment


                        • I’ve always found the love for the aml a little difficult to understand so a little bit of history

                          It started off as a French army project in the late 1950’s, as at the time the French were fighting a massive anti insurgency campaign in Algeria and had acquired a load of British ferret armoured cars to wage said war. As they weren’t made in France and sanctions were a possibility, not to mantion saving valuable foreign currency the French opted to get Panhard to develop something better more suited to their anti insurgency campaign, and that essentially is what the Aml 245 is, although it owes some of its lineage to earlier Panhard designs such as the 178.

                          Because of the war they were fighting the French opted for a main armament of a 60mm mortar as that was best for fighting lightly armod guerrillas on foot in the mountains of north Africa

                          All in all the AMl 60 was a good design for its time and intended purpose, and interested the south Africans, who were looking at having to do the same as the freench. They approached Panhard and asked for a licence to produce the AML 60. They also requested a bigger gun version as they followed British doctrine and needed one. The arms industry is an industry and what Panhard did was take a 90mm gun that had been developed to rearm 6 pounder guns and fitted it to the aml turret, and hey presto the AML 90. That the basis chassis was never designed for a weapon of this size is important to remember, the AML 245 was never engineered or intended to fire anything more than a 60mm mortar or machine gun, and if anybody has had to misfortune to be on one when it shoots that’s fairly evident from the recoil .

                          In south African service the AMl served in Angola in 1970’s, but it was evident from the beginning of the campaign that the 90mm version of the car had problems cross country as the chassis was never intended for a gun of that type and by 1984 it had been regulated to second line duties. The south africans fitted the turret to the ratel which as a larger vehicle was able to absorb the recol of the gun when it fired, and that proved more sucessful on the battle of the late 1980's although if they had been up against better traing troops it might not have been so easy

                          The concept of a reasonably big gun capable of killing tanks on a small vehicle interested the Israelis, who acquired AMl-90’s for their paratrooper units, during the 1967 was they came up against a force of Jordanian tanks ( who were far better trained than Egyptian or Syrian troops) and got massacred. Those who claim that the aml 90 in Unifil intimidated the Israelis are usually people who have been no nearer the Lebanon that Agia napa; the Israelis knew it was a piece of shit, they learnt that the hard way and had pensioned off the AMl-90 in the late 1960;s after less than a decades service.

                          As for us, when they bought the AML-60 in 1964, they had been seriously impressed by the Ferrets that they operated in the Congo, but by the time the money was in budget for the original 16 cars for the Cyprus mission the Ferret was out of production, so going second hand was the only option. They hadn’t had any new cars since the 1930’s, and after waiting so long for new cars they didn’t want second hand so they spent well at the time. They were also influenced by the Comets as the British war office essentially charged them top dollar for heaps of shit ( they actually wanted centurions but were fobbed off with the comet) . Forward to 1972 and the thinking was that they might have to engage a military force in a possibly UDI regime north of the border so acquiring the AML-90 along with further AML-60 made perfect sense, as it was a variant of an existing vehicle and hey needed something.

                          However when the British looked towards replacing the ferret shortly after the AMl buy around 1965, their resulting design the fox was perhaps more forward looking in that the opted for the 30mm rarden gun , which despite its limitations, was a better weapon for anti-armour work. The only problem was that it was too top heavy, as the intention was to replace both the Saladin and the Ferret hence why the fox was phased out of service in the early 90s, it was literally more dangerous to its crews than the enemy. Which probably influenced our decision not to progress with the schemes to upgrade the AMl 60 with fox turrets or the French 25mm design in the late 1980’s, that and the fact that the country was broke at the time. When they did eventually rearm them with the 20mm in the 90’s it was actually a good option, the turret had been developed from the original one produced for the AML 60 by denel so from an engineering perspective its about right. But arguably the Aml 90 was obsolete the day it was bought a half century ago.
                          Last edited by paul g; 30 October 2022, 23:52.

                          Comment


                          • Thank you Paul
                            'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
                            'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
                            Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
                            He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
                            http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Jaque'ammer View Post

                              Work friend is former Brazilian army. Most of their work is stuff police or border guard should be doing. It wouldn't make a difference what year the vehicle they're driving around in was built
                              What they actually do and what they want to be able to are different things. The Brazilian army are famously obsessed with the idea of an invasion through the amazon.

                              But the Brazilian army is a political animal too so they do a lot of make work and play up the drug interdiction thing for every real it's worth.

                              "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

                              Comment


                              • Pretty accurate there.
                                Many in Cav called them "Clown Cars". The reputation in Irish service is all down to the battle of At-Tiri, where one AML90 got an M kill against a DFF WW2 era half-track. An israeli Sherman tank was also destroyed in the engagement, but by a TOW missile fired from a Dutch APC. Afterwards an incorrect reputation circulated suggesting the DFF were reluctant to face down Panhards any more. In reality the fatality the DFF took that day caused the deaths of 3 members of IRISHBATT not long after, and the DFF continued the same crap they always did, knowing UNIFIL would withdraw their forces as necessary.
                                The reality is in later years giving the FMR 84mm Carl Gustav and HMGs was as useful as the sound of a noisy Panhard struggling to reach wherever it was needed. The problem was the mandate. There was another occasion during Grapes of Wrath where a Panhard went toe to toe with a more modern Israeli tank in Lebanon and did so from an elevated position. (AML 90 had very good -8 depression). It was loaded, ready to fire, and crew all snuck out of the car taking cover nearby. Everyone knew while the round might damage the Tank, it wouldn't kill it, and would inevitably suffer near immediate counter fire, which would eliminate it. The car commander rigged it to fire using paracord from his position of cover. In the event, the Israeli tank withdrew.
                                What is less discussed is that we lost one in the early days of UNIFIL to an RPG-7. Crew escaped as car went on fire.
                                They were better than nothing. You could write a book on their faults, their good points would fit on a post-it note.
                                The backpressure from the gun being fired within the car could be disorientating. The mud the muzzle brake threw up also completely covered the optics, (which had no means of being cleaned from within the car). The modification added to ours by the South Africans at least gave the crew a secondary optic. The gun fired a 9lb anti-tank or anti-personnel round. With a recoil which pushed the gun back about 2 feet into the car, inches from the operator's face. Some suggested that the massive boom the gun made was intended to frighten the enemy into thinking it was something far heavier.
                                In reality, a modern car like the Piranha, putting down rapid 30mm cannon fire while on the move is probably more effective than the 90mm (which could only be fired while stationary) ever was.
                                For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X