Thanks Thanks:  5
Likes Likes:  3
Dislikes Dislikes:  0
Results 1 to 21 of 21
  1. #1
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    you already know too much
    Posts
    33,440
    Post Thanks / Like

    Army battalions that rely on foreign recruits face the axe when defence cuts are outl

    Army battalions propped up by foreign-born recruits will be axed or merged by the Ministry of Defence in a new round of cuts.

    At least five infantry battalions will be cut under the Future Force 2020 proposals.

    And Defence Secretary Philip Hammond has suggested those with a higher proportion of foreign and commonwealth-born soldiers will be the first to go.




    Soldiers of the Royal Highland Fusiliers - one of the regiments facing cuts

    Battalions that aren't wiped out together face being amalgamated with other battalions or turned into Territorial Army units.


    The decision will be unveiled next Thursday, but the Daily Telegraph reveals three infantry battalions set for the axe are the Royal Highland Fusiliers (2 Bn The Royal Regiment of Scotland), 1st Bn Princess of Wales’s Royal Regiment and 5 Bn The Rifles.



    Figures seen by the Telegraph reveal between 15 and 20 per cent of soldiers in each unit were recruited from overseas - most commonly from the Caribbean and Fiji.

    The shuffle, proposed by Lieutenant General Nick Carter, will cut personnel numbers by 20 per cent and constitutes the biggest change to the Army since 1904.



    The decision have been delayed for months as debate raged over which regiments will survive and which won't.


    Scottish battalions will be hardest hit, with the possibility of Scottish independence looming.

    It's believed that the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders (5 Scots), will be cut entirely or downgraded to a TA unit.

    Others likely to be cut or converted include 3 Bn the Yorkshire Regiment, 2 Bn Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, 3 Bn Mercian Regiment and 5 Bn The Rifles.

    Those facing elimination entirely include the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards and 1st The Queen’s Dragoon Guards, which are expected to be merged.

    A last ditch bid from Downing Street to save all the units by reducing battalion numbers from 600 to 400 was rejected by Army bosses.

    'Super regiments' formed just six years ago are also expected to lose a battalion each.

    The news is a huge morale blow to the Army, coming on Armed Forces Day.


    But the MOD insists the cuts are necessary.

    A spokesman said: 'Recruitment performance is just one of the criteria determining the future shape of the Army. These are necessary changes due to the decisions which had to be made to tackle the multi-billion pound defence deficit inherited from the last government.'

    The news comes just weeks after it was revealed the British Army will be split in two as military chiefs seek to cope with budget cuts and keep pace with modern warfare.

    The new-look forces will shift their focus to covert special operations, surveillance, intelligence and cyber security.

    The drastic restructuring comes as part of an overhaul that will see personnel numbers hacked down by a fifth over the next eight years, from 102,000 to just 82,000.


    The plan suggests dividing the force into 'Reaction' and 'Adaptable' branches.

    The former will specialise in quick response, while the latter will be dedicated to longer-term engagements.

    The result will be the smallest army since the Napoleonic Wars.


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1zIwCY8gR


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  2. Thanks spider, Te Kaha thanked for this post
  3. #2
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    you already know too much
    Posts
    33,440
    Post Thanks / Like
    Scottish infantry spared as English regiments axed

    All five Scottish infantry regiments are to be spared the axe as English troops take the brunt of defence cuts today.







    It can also be disclosed that the Scots Dragoon Guards that had been considered for merger with another cavalry regiment will survive unscathed Photo: PA









    By Thomas Harding, Defence Correspondent

    10:00PM BST 04 Jul 2012





    The move has caused outrage among MPs and serving officers south of the border with three English and one Welsh battalion chopped.


    Anger is likely to intensify when it is disclosed that the English battalions will now lose their historic titles such as the Green Howards, Staffords and Duke of Wellingtons.


    It can also be disclosed that the Scots Dragoon Guards that had been considered for merger with another cavalry regiment will survive unscathed.


    One serving officer called the move “deeply unfair, bordering on the outrageous”


    The first four battalions of the Royal Regiment of Scotland will now reduce by about 100 to 450 men each and the fifth battalion, the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders will shrink to a company of about 120 men performing ceremonial duties outside Edinburgh Castle and elsewhere.



    However, English battalions will remain at up to 600 troops each.

    Patrick Mercer, a Tory MP and former commanding officer of an English infantry battalion, said: “If this is the case why, yet again, do the Scottish unit get preferential treatment?

    “They have been allowed to keep their regimental titles and now they are going to be reduced to nothing larger than a major’s command and yet English battalions now just have to lump it.”

    The cuts in Army 2020 will be the biggest reforms to the Service since 1904 reducing it to 82,000 men, its smallest size since the Napoleonic Wars.

    The Government has argued that the shortfall in numbers will be made up by boosting the Territorial Army to 30,000 troops. However it can barely field half that number with officers deeply skeptical of its future role.

    “On which planet do they seriously believe that we will sustain TA force of 30,000,” one office said. “It’s just laughable. I have yet to meet a single individual at senior level who believes this feasible.”

    In last minute deals struck by Downing Street it is understood that the deal with the Scottish regiments was made to undermine the pro-independence lobby.

    The wrangling over cuts to famous names has been going on for months with the Army 2020 package originally meant to be announced in April.

    The English battalions to go will be the 3rd Battalion, the Yorkshire Regiment (the Duke of Wellington's) and the 3rd Bn The Mercians, who gained renown as the Staffordshire Regiment.

    As disclosed in The Daily Telegraph earlier this week the 2nd Bn The Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, one of the best recruited in the Army, will also be cut.

    It will be joined the 2nd Bn The Royal Welsh, who can trace their roots back to Rorke’s Drift.

    Two English cavalry regiments will disappear when the Queen’s Royal Lancers amalgamates with the 9th/12th Lancers and there is a merger of the 1st and 2nd Royal Tank Regiment.

    However the biggest cuts will come with what are known as “combat support” arms vital to servicing an army in the field. The Royal Logistic Corps, the Royal Artillery and Royal Engineers all face losing a third of their strength.

    It is understood that the cuts, which Philip Hammond, the Defence Secretary will announce in Parliament at midday, were delayed by a week to avoid embarrassment to the Prime Minister during Armed Forces Day ceremonies last Saturday.

    A MoD spokesman said: “By 2020 the Army will be restructured to become an integrated Regular and Reserve force of 120,000 personnel. We are investing £1.8 billion over 10 years to enhance the capability and strength of the Reserves and better integrate them with the Regular component.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ents-axed.html


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  4. #3
    Major General
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    3,043
    Post Thanks / Like
    The Scots regiments had already been cut in Mike Jacksons time due to regiments in low pop areas being constantly u/s.

  5. #4
    Private 2*
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Dublin,Eire
    Posts
    13
    Post Thanks / Like
    "The Irish Move To The Sound Of Guns Like Salmon To The Sea" Rudyard Kipling

    "The More You Sweat In Peace , The Less you Bleed In War" George S. Patton

    "A man who won't die for something is a man not fit to live." Martin Luther King Jr.

  6. #5
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Home of the British Army
    Posts
    7,765
    Post Thanks / Like
    the Royal Regiment of Scotland will lose a battalion, being replaced by a Company for Ceremonial Duties.

    2nd Battalion the Royal Welsh will also go, aswell as 2RRF, 3MERCIAN and 3YORKS.

    the RIFLES will remain the largest and are now the only Regiment in the British Army to have 5 Battalions.

    losing battalions is never good news but i'm glad those remaining will be better equipped and better trained with more overseas travel opportunities than ever before.

    despite the title of this thread, just as Scottish regiments have indeed been hit - i don't believe the number of 'foreign recruits' has had any bearing on the decisions made.
    Last edited by RoyalGreenJacket; 5th July 2012 at 12:50.
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

    The Rifles

  7. #6
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    22,891
    Post Thanks / Like
    Why??

    The whole point of regiments is that recruit from a geographic area, if there is not enough people from an area looking to join then why have a regiment (relying on foreigners to fill out the ranks).

  8. #7
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Home of the British Army
    Posts
    7,765
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Why??

    The whole point of regiments is that recruit from a geographic area, if there is not enough people from an area looking to join then why have a regiment (relying on foreigners to fill out the ranks).
    not necessarily - the Rifles, Paras and Fusiliers for example are not geographically bound to any particular location, and we have thousands of Welsh and Scottish soldiers serving in other battalions that are not actually associated with their origin yet despite this the Fusiliers, Scots and Welsh have all lost a Battalion.

    despite the Rifles having 5 battalions - they are still over subscribed with young men wishing to be Riflemen within the Regiment.

    interestingly, the Royal Irish Regiment will now come under the wing of the Prince of Wales Division - not good news for their future in the next round of cuts.
    Last edited by RoyalGreenJacket; 5th July 2012 at 13:12.
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

    The Rifles

  9. #8
    Lt Colonel
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    2,033
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Why??

    The whole point of regiments is that recruit from a geographic area, if there is not enough people from an area looking to join then why have a regiment (relying on foreigners to fill out the ranks).
    its also worth noting that the RRS Bn's will have a strength of 450 when the English, Welsh and National Bn's will have a strength of 600. so from now on, when a RRS Bn forms a BattleGroup, it will have at least two Inf Coys 'borrowed' from other Bn's - or that from now on, the RRS will spend the future being the Force Protection bitch to those Regiments who can actually recruit. the truth is, that without the political need to suck Scottish c0ck, the RRS would have been lucky to end the day with 3 Regular Bn's and 1 Reserve Bn. we appear to learning about Parish Pumpery...

    E2A: my suspicion is that we should remember that this review is very pointedly called Force2020, some 6 years after the Scottish referendum takes place, and after the 2015 and 2020 SDSR. i rather hope that after the political shennanigans required for the Scottish Referendum are over, another review takes place, and some of those units which are now slated for the block might be saved at the expense of those protected, for the moment, for political reasons.

    very sad to see the loss of 39 Regt RA, and disturbed to see 24 Cdo Regt RE getting the chop - thats going to put a hole in the capability of 16AA and 3 Cdo Bde's to deploy at the same time...
    Last edited by ropebag; 5th July 2012 at 13:29.

  10. #9
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Home of the British Army
    Posts
    7,765
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    very sad to see the loss of 39 Regt RA, and disturbed to see 24 Cdo Regt RE getting the chop - thats going to put a hole in the capability of 16AA and 3 Cdo Bde's to deploy at the same time...
    they certainly didn't think that one through - they were specialist units for a reason.
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

    The Rifles

  11. #10
    In Arduis Fidelis rod and serpent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    In a semi permissable environment.
    Posts
    3,237
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
    interestingly, the Royal Irish Regiment will now come under the wing of the Prince of Wales Division - not good news for their future in the next round of cuts.

    For some strange reason they left the Kings Division and joined the Scottish Division, why dont they revert back to Kings Division now.

  12. #11
    Lt Colonel
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    2,033
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by rod and serpent View Post
    For some strange reason...
    Ginger Step-Child syndrome?

    from drunkenly overheard rumour, its the problem that all small Regiments have when swimming in the same pond as large Regiments - large, multi Battalion Regiments stick together for protection/advancement, and if that means stiffing the billy-no-mates in the corner then thats what'll happen. being a single Bn Regiment, and one that has, shall we say, a number of 'issues' as far as the rest of the Army is concerned, means they are always going to be billy-no-mates. chopping and changing Div's is just them trying to find somewhere that they're welcome, and the Div's hoofing them out to make room for their friends.

    like RGJ, i don't see them surviving long term - Multi-Bn Regiments are without doubt the future of the Army, and no one wants the RIR in their gang - the IG's would, for intance, have a fit if it were suggested that the IG and RIR formed a 3 Bn 'Irish Regiment'. the RWF however, while they will be a single Bn, don't suffer the unpopularity that 1RIR has, and would therefore be more likely to find a gang to join.

  13. Likes RoyalGreenJacket liked this post
  14. #12
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    22,891
    Post Thanks / Like
    Get rid of this stupid idea of "divisions" within the infantry, serves no purpose !

  15. Likes spider liked this post
  16. #13
    Brigadier General
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    2,951
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    Ginger Step-Child syndrome?

    from drunkenly overheard rumour, its the problem that all small Regiments have when swimming in the same pond as large Regiments - large, multi Battalion Regiments stick together for protection/advancement, and if that means stiffing the billy-no-mates in the corner then thats what'll happen. being a single Bn Regiment, and one that has, shall we say, a number of 'issues' as far as the rest of the Army is concerned, means they are always going to be billy-no-mates. chopping and changing Div's is just them trying to find somewhere that they're welcome, and the Div's hoofing them out to make room for their friends.

    like RGJ, i don't see them surviving long term - Multi-Bn Regiments are without doubt the future of the Army, and no one wants the RIR in their gang - the IG's would, for intance, have a fit if it were suggested that the IG and RIR formed a 3 Bn 'Irish Regiment'. the RWF however, while they will be a single Bn, don't suffer the unpopularity that 1RIR has, and would therefore be more likely to find a gang to join.
    Hi Ropebag

    What's the problems with RIR.? Always though the jocks daffs and turnips were second rate to them

  17. #14
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Home of the British Army
    Posts
    7,765
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    Hi Ropebag

    What's the problems with RIR.? Always though the jocks daffs and turnips were second rate to them
    it's not about being first or second rate, it's about being in the minority and not having much top cover.

    good blokes, good regiment, just out on a bit of a limb that may not be supported next time when other more 'British' regiments of the British Army are facing the axe and the Divisions have to cull a battalion, or two.

    then again - they are oversubscribed with applications from men in the Republic of Ireland and elsewhere, so recruiting is strong and if in a time a long way from now more battalions need to be raised then i am sure they could easily step up to the mark.
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

    The Rifles

  18. Thanks sofa thanked for this post
  19. #15
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Home of the British Army
    Posts
    7,765
    Post Thanks / Like
    some silver lining to the cuts - it's good to see that Mastiff and Jackal are here to stay post Afghan and are already on the ORBAT for certain battalions.

    the above, combined with Foxhound - means we are going to have some very well equipped Mechanised Infantry battalions aswell as the new upgraded Warrior and ASCOD equipped Armoured Infantry battalions with the new Wildcat and Atlas supporting the Air Mobile battalions.
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

    The Rifles

  20. #16
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    22,891
    Post Thanks / Like
    So are Saxon and the 432s going?

  21. #17
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Home of the British Army
    Posts
    7,765
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    So are Saxon and the 432s going?
    i haven't seen a Saxon in about a decade, and i believe we lost most of our Bulldogs (TELIC Spec 432's) recently too but they are still used for generic training in Canada etc.
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

    The Rifles

  22. #18
    Lt Colonel
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    2,033
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    Hi Ropebag

    What's the problems with RIR.? Always though the jocks daffs and turnips were second rate to them
    theres a good element in what RGJ says - they are a decent Bn, and there are a good few within the Army that i'd take 1RIR over any day of the week - but they have, along with the 'cover' issue, two perceived problems: firstly that when 1RIR got chopped to 16AA they let it get away with them, they bigged themselves up and started honking off about being '4 PARA', and not just at a junior soldier level, but at senior levels as well - and, shall we say, the reality has not kept pace with the bravado. secondly that most of the rest of the Army is pretty uncomfortable with some of the 'social issues' within the Bn. they may well handle it and maintain good morale, but the UVF flags in barracks and lodge meetings don't sit well with the rest of the Army.

    they are a decent Bn (and on occasion, a fcuking brilliant Bn), they do well on operations and in training, and a Bn that has that record can't be doing too much wrong with the way it treats its soldiers, however, most of the people i've known who've worked with them said the same thing - great Bn, good bunch of blokes and good leadership, i just wouldn't want to live with them.

    there are/were RRS Bn's like that - like something from another world - but the amalgamations and recruiting problems they've had mean they have been 'diluted' to a large degree.

  23. Thanks RoyalGreenJacket, sofa thanked for this post
    Likes RoyalGreenJacket liked this post
  24. #19
    Sergeant Major
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    946
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    theres a good element in what RGJ says - they are a decent Bn, and there are a good few within the Army that i'd take 1RIR over any day of the week - but they have, along with the 'cover' issue, two perceived problems: firstly that when 1RIR got chopped to 16AA they let it get away with them, they bigged themselves up and started honking off about being '4 PARA', and not just at a junior soldier level, but at senior levels as well - and, shall we say, the reality has not kept pace with the bravado. secondly that most of the rest of the Army is pretty uncomfortable with some of the 'social issues' within the Bn. they may well handle it and maintain good morale, but the UVF flags in barracks and lodge meetings don't sit well with the rest of the Army.

    they are a decent Bn (and on occasion, a fcuking brilliant Bn), they do well on operations and in training, and a Bn that has that record can't be doing too much wrong with the way it treats its soldiers, however, most of the people i've known who've worked with them said the same thing - great Bn, good bunch of blokes and good leadership, i just wouldn't want to live with them.

    there are/were RRS Bn's like that - like something from another world - but the amalgamations and recruiting problems they've had mean they have been 'diluted' to a large degree.
    I would have assumed that the Irish Guards would have had similar issues as well - has the heavy recruiting from the north of England somewhat diluted the issue?

  25. #20
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Home of the British Army
    Posts
    7,765
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by northie View Post
    I would have assumed that the Irish Guards would have had similar issues as well - has the heavy recruiting from the north of England somewhat diluted the issue?
    i've never experienced such diversity that i have seen in the RIR in the IG.

    although i've worked with both of them i've only ever lived with the RIR but that was a long time ago - however i did find them quite sectarian.

    Irish Kid - currently serving with 2RIFLES had an unfortunate incident with a 1RIR Warrant Officer recently which he attributes to his Irish nationality.

    that said - Keef and other lads i know don't seem to have highlighted any problems in this regard and everything seems on a relatively equal footing with many SNCO's and young soldiers coming from the Republic of Ireland.
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

    The Rifles

  26. #21
    Banned User
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    1,282
    Post Thanks / Like
    The Green Howards who have been axed this time were "saved" in 2006 although amalgamated within the Yorkshires. This raised some eyebrows but the COS at the time -Richard Dannatt, himself a Green Howard - said it all made perfect sense.

    The Rifles are unscathed in the present cuts which also has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that two of the most influential men in the British Army, Nick Carter and Nick Parker are both members of the "Black Mafia".

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •