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  1. #26
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    i have a friend who works for mastercard who reckons that in ten years time conventional cash will have disappeared, and that we'll use cards for even the most basic things. I must admit geting my coffee from starbucks by card, and if you go someplace like denemark, cash is on its way out.
    if that arises, and it will, then the need for cash escorts will be gone.

    The green paper wiil outline the strategic situation and the forecasts for the next ten years or so and how we should balance and priotorise defence spending, so perhaps we should suspend the pissing matches over who deserves the most money till we ve read it.[/QUOTE]



    Hahahahaha cheques and cash have suppose to have been on their way out since the 70s!!!

    For years people have been keeping the cash under the mattress, possibly because they distrust banks...... Maybe they are right!

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by expat01 View Post
    The first part of your post is possibly the most dangerous thing I've ever heard from a soldier. In a democracy the army should have nothing whatsoever to do with law and order. The army exists to fight enemies of the state. Use them for law and order and soon the people become the enemies of the state. Soldiers kill enemies, or they aren't really soldiers.
    And DeV, no soldier can be "ordered to take a life" in any way. He may open fire in defence Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. A garda can do all that and more if he's armed.
    I don't think its healthy to deploy your army amongst your own people. Fortunately our government agrees and has made sure that the soldier on the street is legally no more than an armed civilian and apart from the normal sentry rules, can do nothing except as a kind of auxiliary to a cop. This is good.

    If you look at my make believe paper, I said that the army should be purposed and equipped for overseas deployment. I don't believe there will be any need for ATCP in the future. My problem is that the ATCP role the army HAS taken since 1969 did not actually require a military to achieve and focusing on it has distracted the army from other possibilities.
    And while I fully agree the Irish soldier punches above his weight compared to what the government believes he can do, I honestly think the Irish military punches far, far below our country's weight. We're not exactly up there with New Zealand, unfortunately.
    Since the end of the civil war, nobody in government, or command, has ever taken the military seriously. As a consequence the Irish population haven't, and in my experience most Irish soldiers don't either.





    MOD: Editted due to restricted information

    New Zealand ?? please don't insult us, They are selling off a third of their LAVS, because they have on use for them. Only three have being used abroad
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/poli...l-35-army-LAVs
    Last edited by sofa; 23rd June 2013 at 23:11.

  3. #28
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    While the current political triplelock defines overseas deployment the practical tripleffect of lack of money,casualties and retaliation against civvies here have served to prevent ad hoc deployment on any given Blair/Bush folly .Sending out an expedition has consequences.

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  5. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    New Zealand ?? please don't insult us, They are selling off a third of their LAVS, because they have on use for them. Only three have being used abroad
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/poli...l-35-army-LAVs
    You may need to check your sources a little more or don't jump to conclusions.

    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...-Forces/page44

  6. #30
    C/S tonyrdf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    The ultimate purpose of an army is to be the states final line of law and order.Gardai at the end of the day are civilians and cannot be ordered to take life.Soldiers can.
    The army is the ultimate guarantor of stability.No outside investor,on which our economy depends so much,is going to set up shop here if their executives will be kidnapped,their stock stolen,their factories burned and "protection" money demanded.All you have to do is look at countries such as Somalia and Colombia to see the damage a weak(the army is a governments muscle) government(or none at all) can do to a countries economy.
    yes a lot of the Army tasks here are gendarmerie type tasks but if all you have is a gendarmerie then you don't have a proper army to act overseas in expeditionary tasks.You can't have it both ways.
    The army here trains for the full spectrum of operations from full scale warfighting to PSO and ATCP and we can do each fairly well.We will never be the worlds biggest or best equipped but we punch well above our weight and our troops are multi skilled unlike in some other forces.
    So yes.The navy are very important and deserve good investment but not at the expense of the other branches.

    I've never heard the police vs army role put like that before, but your right
    Insofar as that as a Garda I would never take a life simply for being orderd to do so.

    This is why soldiers should only be used sparingly for domestic security,
    There job is to kill the enemy, a policeman's job is to bring criminals
    Before the courts.
    Im Ron Burgendy??

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  8. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    iHahahahaha cheques and cash have suppose to have been on their way out since the 70s!!!

    For years people have been keeping the cash under the mattress, possibly because they distrust banks...... Maybe they are right!
    When was the last time you wrote a cheque, I haven;'t written one since 1999, in the late 1980's cheques were written by most people on a weekly basis, that day is is long gone.

    The world changes and so do defence priorties, ATCP has traditionally been the dominant role for the defence forces, but its changing, as will the way the garda provide policing services.

    As i said talking about one service winning over another is the wrong way to look at it; talking about ATCP, cash escorts and the provo threat would be the wrong attitude for the army to take IMHO, the future lies with European defence tasks.

    Change can be good for any organisation, which was better, the defence forces of the early 1990;/s or the defence forces of today? There were legions of naysayers and private frazers at the time of the last white paper, who ended up being wrong.
    Last edited by paul g; 24th June 2013 at 14:13.

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  10. #32
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    When was the last time you wrote a cheque, I haven;'t written one since 1999, in the late 1980's cheques were written by most people on a weekly basis, that day is long gone
    I wrote about 15 last year.

    It is still very common in the B2B SME sector.


    the future lies with European
    Does it?
    The EU has stood by while a number of wars have gone on.
    There is no mutual defence pact.

    Who is to say that the CFSP means that we need an army at all? Potentionally we could just give the EU a few million a year and disband the army!?

  11. #33
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    Who is to say that the CFSP means that we need an army at all?
    Because the 'C' in CFSP stands for Common, not 'Central'.

    about ATCP, cash escorts and the provo threat would be the wrong attitude for the army to take IMHO
    You forgot about manning decrepit barracks in county towns and participating in St Patricks Day parades. Critical defence tasks for the old Army.
    Last edited by Aidan; 24th June 2013 at 15:08.

  12. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aidan View Post
    You forgot about manning decrepit barracks in county towns and participating in St Patricks Day parades. Critical defence tasks for the old Army.
    yeop it was, there was a time when spending on defence and all; government services was mostly on wages and politicans made sure that money was spread around the country, hence why irish teachers/policemen/etc are so well paid by european standards. .

    Part of the country's problem is that when the good times came that attitude carried on.
    Last edited by paul g; 24th June 2013 at 15:55.

  13. #35
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    Part of the country's problem is that when the good times came that attitude carried on.
    To be fair, a lot of the causal factors for the 'Tiger II' (2001-8) came from the political desire to spread economic goodies around the country. The real Tiger years were urban centric, as is/will be the recovery. All of which makes the political situation even more interesting.

  14. #36
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    if that arises, and it will, then the need for cash escorts will be gone.
    i think that need disappeared years ago actually.
    RGJ

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  15. #37
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aidan View Post
    Because the 'C' in CFSP stands for Common, not 'Central'.



    You forgot about manning decrepit barracks in county towns and participating in St Patricks Day parades. Critical defence tasks for the old Army.

    Who's to say that!?

    The barracks have been consolidated by around 50%

    Quote Originally Posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
    i think that need disappeared years ago actually.
    Your not quoting me there...... Did it?

    In the last few years there was a case of a CIT vehicle being robbed before it met with its escort and another of a Garda Detective being shot died without having a chance to draw his weapon.

  16. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
    i think that need disappeared years ago actually.
    i think whts really gone is the time when the Gardai can set defence policy by deciding that they aren't going to be armed, meaning someone else has to do the 'Armed' bit of policing.

    escorting a cash van in somewhere that isn't downtown Homs or Aleppo is a police task. Gardai could be as 'tooled up' as any of the Mets' firearms sections and would be easily capable of fending off the gangs the Army deters by doing cash escorts, its just they choose not to, and the government has a pretty shallow pool of alternative options.

  17. #39
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    Who's to say that!?
    This.
    http://europa.eu/legislation_summari.../ai0026_en.htm

    These tasks are shared, not centralised.


    The barracks have been consolidated by around 50%
    Hence the use of the word 'old'.

  18. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aidan View Post
    To be fair, a lot of the causal factors for the 'Tiger II' (2001-8) came from the political desire to spread economic goodies around the country. The real Tiger years were urban centric, as is/will be the recovery. All of which makes the political situation even more interesting.
    Oh I'm sure mickey martin has looked at olli Rehn and his friends in the centre party in Finland and others in the ALDE.

  19. #41
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aidan View Post
    Plenty of room for ops to be conduct in our (the EU's and by extension Ireland's) name without an army.

  20. #42
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    i think whts really gone is the time when the Gardai can set defence policy by deciding that they aren't going to be armed, meaning someone else has to do the 'Armed' bit of policing.

    escorting a cash van in somewhere that isn't downtown Homs or Aleppo is a police task. Gardai could be as 'tooled up' as any of the Mets' firearms sections and would be easily capable of fending off the gangs the Army deters by doing cash escorts, its just they choose not to, and the government has a pretty shallow pool of alternative options.
    There is/was plenty of armed Gardai but not enough to do all the tasks!

    Armed Gardai don't deter armed criminals that has been shown time and again! No DF cash escort has been challenged

  21. #43
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    The first part of your post is possibly the most dangerous thing I've ever heard from a soldier. In a democracy the army should have nothing whatsoever to do with law and order. The army exists to fight enemies of the state. Use them for law and order and soon the people become the enemies of the state. Soldiers kill enemies, or they aren't really soldiers.
    I am sorry you feel that.Before i continue i would like to clarify my position.I am not advocating the Army should have primacy in the policing of the state.Far from it.Soldiers are soldiers not policemen.I am talking about what happens should the country face an all out anarchy situation IE police stations being burned,police killed and a total breakdown of law and order.In that situation a countries army is its last best hope of restoring order.(Fat lot of good your navy will be then BTW)

    And DeV, no soldier can be "ordered to take a life" in any way. He may open fire in defence Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. A garda can do all that and more if he's armed.
    I think you need to review that statement.Under normal circumstances you are correct and the guidance document sets out what we can and can't do.But that's under the normal rule of civil law.In a situation like I outlined above it is highly likely that if we had armed mobs roaming the streets and killing police that martial law would be enacted until the sitaution could be stabilised and handed back to the police.In that situation the rules would be different.very,very different.We are talking about a "lethal rioting" situation.Thankfully we have never seen that in the republic.But yes soldiers CAN and have been ordered to kill people.Civilian police cannot be ordered to do the same.
    I don't think its healthy to deploy your army amongst your own people. Fortunately our government agrees and has made sure that the soldier on the street is legally no more than an armed civilian and apart from the normal sentry rules, can do nothing except as a kind of auxiliary to a cop. This is good.
    Totally agree.We serve the civil power.Period.I hope we never have to deploy on the streets.We can if we have to though and the only people who would make that decision are the Government the people elected.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  22. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    There is/was plenty of armed Gardai but not enough to do all the tasks!

    Armed Gardai don't deter armed criminals that has been shown time and again! No DF cash escort has been challenged
    the last bit is
    not true

  23. #45
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    I am sorry you feel that.Before i continue i would like to clarify my position.I am not advocating the Army should have primacy in the policing of the state.Far from it.Soldiers are soldiers not policemen.I am talking about what happens should the country face an all out anarchy situation IE police stations being burned,police killed and a total breakdown of law and order.In that situation a countries army is its last best hope of restoring order.(Fat lot of good your navy will be then BTW)
    This is the underlying basis of the nation state as we know it. And the first role of every military. Acknowledging it is not the same thing as saying that the army will get involved in politics.
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  24. #46
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaiser View Post
    the last bit is
    not true
    Well it is has the money has been safe!

  25. #47
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    the money has been safe yes
    but our cit,s have been challenged on several occasions
    Last edited by Turkey; 25th June 2013 at 23:50.

  26. #48
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    No DF cash escort has been challenged
    count yourselves lucky no CIT has been challenged because with soldiers sat side by side like sitting ducks with little or no SA and terrible arcs of fire in a vehicle with no armour - it would be a tragedy.

    in Iraq i've seen whole Close Protection teams wiped out in similar vehicles by just a some well aimed bursts from a couple of AK's - it's easily done and too late when it happens even once.

    if they are going to escort cash in TRANSIT (the clue is in the name) - then equip them properly and give them anything better than a 4x4 taxi that only allows the soldiers to become effective after they de-bus.

    besides, most would say escorting cash is a job for security men and police men, not soldiers.

    however if the government say there is a requirement for armed soldiers to follow cash around the country then it should not be a token effort and they need vehicles in which they can be both defensive and offensive from.

    Snatch would be perfect in this role.

    this is a dig at government and policy not the soldiers doing the job, and i hope someone in government sees sense and removes soldiers from this demoralising inappropriate task.

    either that - or hopefully the top brass in the ONH, encouraged by constructive criticism from SNCO's and JNCO's doing the actual job, are kicking off to get the government to provide vehicles to meet the task.

    you can not simply match a threat with a presence, that presence needs to be able to fend, and fight, and whilst sitting in a standard soft skinned vehicle without any SA enhancements or firing positions - you can do neither.
    Last edited by RoyalGreenJacket; 24th June 2013 at 22:46.
    RGJ

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  28. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    I am sorry you feel that....I am talking about what happens should the country face an all out anarchy situation IE police stations being burned,police killed and a total breakdown of law and order.In that situation a countries army is its last best hope of restoring order.(Fat lot of good your navy will be then).
    I get what you mean. In such a situation all bets are off.
    I wonder, on a tangent...in a country like ours there is less of a social divide between serving soldier and civilians as most soldiers don't live in barracks. Would the kind of widespread deterioration in the state's authority that such a situation implies have an effect on the loyalty of significant numbers of the DF because of this? But that's way off topic.
    But again, my background is infantry even if it was RDF and the army would be the only service I would choose. But apocalyptic collapse of law and order aside, I still think the navy is the most important service for an island state. That's not the same as not wanting an army. I'd love a navy with four destroyers, airbus a400ms, tigers and a few gripens for the air corps and a four-brigade army with self propelled artillery, helicopter transport and enough AFVs for all, but "hovertank" style wishlists didn't seem appropriate for this thread.

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  30. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    i think whts really gone is the time when the Gardai can set defence policy by deciding that they aren't going to be armed, meaning someone else has to do the 'Armed' bit of policing.
    Am I not right in thinking that the armed escorts are cash neutral because the banks pay for it?

    In which case, as part of Shatter's "smart policing" program, could this task not be given to the Gardai who's numbers would be increased to fulfil the tasking at no extra burden to the taxpayer?

    You end up with more police available (with firearms training), the army aren't dicked with such a resource consuming task, and can instead concentrate on more mission readiness training.

    I'd side with RGJ on this. If the Army are doing the job of escorting and aren't rolling in a high profile, up armoured "don't fúck with us" manner, then it may as well be a few cops with a few gats in the 4x4s tailing the cash in transit.

    After the incident with the fuel truck being stolen from a barracks, it would only take one unfortunate incident for one crew to get the upper hand on a CIT patrol, and the Defence Forces will have lost all credibility regardless of all the good it has done and continues to do.

    Best leave the core role of domestic security to the AGS and private security companies and soldiering to soldiers.
    Last edited by SwiftandSure; 25th June 2013 at 01:13.

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