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  • #61
    Originally posted by DeV View Post
    Yes Snatch would be perfect.
    yes it would - in response to your points

    Originally posted by DeV View Post
    Can't keep up with the vehicles it's escorting
    i've personally driven a Snatch along the M1 in Northern Ireland at over 70Mph - how fast do you want it to go?

    Snatch (or similar i.e. Tavern) can operate within legal speed limits so what's the problem?

    if the Garda or CIT wagon are driving beyond the speed limit then they have already abandoned any protection offered by any security escort.

    and it should be the CIT wagon keeping up with the escort vehicle in front of it, not vice versa.

    Originally posted by DeV View Post
    Top cover and leaving the rear doors open is the only SA (would look well on the M50)
    you can leave top-cover up at that speed if required - it isn't very effective but offers as much SA as any man on a motorbike, under normal SOP's we would have top-cover down then but the top-hatch would be open and 2 soldiers could respond if necessary - in the meantime they are protected from small arms fire and limited blast / fragmentation.

    Originally posted by DeV View Post
    Hard top vehicles were purchased because of an accident involving a soft top land rover
    good, but the task should be the driving force behind the decision.

    so yes indeed Snatch would be a massive leap forward in capability for this task compared to what is currently in use.

    it's a pity the ONH never bought any of our Taverns before they were decommissioned - they were brilliant vehicles, much better than Snatch.
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

    The Rifles

    Comment


    • #62
      Doing 70mph with top cover out?

      They may be better protected but their SA is limited to the 1 front and 2 sides windows!

      I'm not talking about during a contact and the escort doesn't leave the vehicle being protected.

      Comment


      • #63
        We are not talking about huge numbers of escorts annually by the way:

        CIT Escorts - approx 2000
        Prison Escorts - approx 150
        Explosive Escorts - approx 6

        Then of course there are (but there are issues there which are Opsec):
        Central Bank Patrols - 730
        Public Buildings Patrols - 730

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        • #64
          Originally posted by DeV View Post
          their [Snatch] SA is limited to the 1 front and 2 sides windows![at speed]
          as opposed to a Pajero with 1 front and 4 side windows (and a rear view mirror)?

          i'll have my Snatch with 1 front and 2 side windows, along with light armour and SA with firing positions covering 360 if required (even at speed) - not to mention it's very effective fire-suppression system.
          RGJ

          ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

          The Rifles

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
            SA with firing positions covering 360 if required (even at speed).
            Only if they expose themselves to fire by going top cover or dismounting all together

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by DeV View Post
              Only if they expose themselves to fire by going top cover or dismounting all together
              as opposed to sitting tight inside a Pajero where the soldiers are entirely exposed, instead of getting into a good fire position by just having to raise their upper body and weapon above the parapet of the Snatch's (or other similar LPPV) armour which protects the rest of their body?

              yes I'll definitely have the Snatch thanks.

              there is no tactical advantage of a Pajero type vehicle over an LPPV for that task, other than better protection from the rain and the cold.

              anyhow we are slightly digressing - my point is - if you do this task then the government needs to take it seriously and provide you with effective vehicles not token vehicles - any vehicle is 'adequate' until challenged, as we have sometimes experienced in the past in the British Army, but to be honest a kid throwing a stone could challenge a Pajero full of troops.
              RGJ

              ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

              The Rifles

              Comment


              • #67
                One minor issue with your idea RGJ - this isn't Northern Ireland or Basra - its a relatively well policed western european country with a low crime rate, a largely unarmed police force and a small but still present vestigial paramilitary problem. Having (amongst other things) a number of armed troops on hand and with the shipments has proven to be sufficient for over 30 years (during much of which the threat level was far higher). And now you think the DF should go all Rambo on it?

                Having troops driving around in armoured Land Rovers in Dublin or Cork wouldn't just look strange or inappropriate, it'd be complete overkill. The international experience elsewhere in Europe suggests something similar. Do the Met firearms teams use Warrior IFVs in London (parts of which are far more dangerous than anywhere here)? As far as I know, they take their lives into their hands in BMW 530Ds. The horror!

                Comment


                • #68
                  Hi Guys I thought the Green paper was coming out today but I havnet seen anything about it on any of the Gov. websites. Can anyone who knows please confirm when the paper is due to be published? Many thanks in advance.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Google seems to suggest its going to Cabinet next week
                    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by trellheim View Post
                      Google seems to suggest its going to Cabinet next week
                      Annex A (The White Paper) to be published the day after haha

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Aidan View Post
                        Having troops driving around in armoured Land Rovers in Dublin or Cork wouldn't just look strange or inappropriate, it'd be complete overkill.
                        I think the point is that the DF should be the armed response/deterrent of last resort.

                        By having them dedicated to this task in such a vulnerable manner means that if challenged and defeated the Government has little scope for escalation and public confidence in our armed forces will take a nose dive.

                        It only takes one nutter with a firearm/IED and premeditated plan to get the better of a CIT patrol once for the whole security of the State to be brought into question.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          It only takes one nutter with a firearm/IED and premeditated plan to get the better of a CIT patrol once for the whole security of the State to be brought into question.
                          Sorry, but nope. Leaving aside the fact that in 30+ years, no one has ever had an overt pop at a CIT patrol (which should tell you something), the threat assessment simply doesn't require armoured vehicles - if anything, the more pressing question is as to whether DF involvement in CIT is required (again, not Basra or even Belfast). Going the other direction, using LTAVs or something similar on visible public ops would be far more likely to have a detrimental effect on the image and reputation of the DF.

                          But even if someone did have a go, and did manage to kill irish soldiers, it would hardly undermine the State - after all the British Army relatively recently lost two Sappers outside a Barracks in N.I. and the fabric of society didn't crumble overnight. And the same goes for more recent unfortunate events in London. A tragic waste of human life certainly, but capable of undermining the fabric of the State? Doubt it.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Guys, the topic! The green paper is high level document, at best it will address whether or not the DF should secure CITs. It will not refer to the type of vehicles used or the colour of Jocks the troops will be wearing.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              RGJ started it. He wants us to do CIT in (british built) tanks.


                              Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
                                RGJ started it. He wants us to do CIT in (british built) tanks.
                                Ya forgot to mention the Eurofighter Typhoons for air cover.....
                                "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
                                Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
                                Illegitimi non carborundum

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