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  1. #101
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    Of course, one way to get the crusties and other lefties onside is to point out that the triple lock allows the UK and USA (as members of the security council) to effectively veto Irish involvement in overseas action.

    The protest marches by Eirigi and other great unwashed will be organised by the end of the week!
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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  3. #102
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
    Just an aside, as has been mentioned earlier in the thread, the PIRA had General Order 8, not to engage with the Irish Army. Do the current lot have similar concerns / restraints?
    General order 8 did not specifically relate to the "Free state Army" but to all the security forces. It was all too frequently ignored.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  4. #103
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    General order 8 did not specifically relate to the "Free state Army" but to all the security forces. It was all too frequently ignored.
    I know that it was viewed as a guideline rather than an order!
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

  5. #104
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    In any event criminals don't follow any rules, even their own.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  6. #105
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    Taken from an asnwer in Dail [Thursday 27th June 2013]

    Green Paper on Defence

    227. Deputy Andrew Doyle asked the Minister for Defence the discussions he has had with officials in his Department and the Irish Defence Forces regarding a policy review and a detailed discussion document of Irish defence policy; if it is proposed to amend the triple lock system that is currently in place where deployment of the Irish Defence Forces requires the approval of the Government, Dáil Éireann and a UN mandate; if he will detail other discussions held with officials regarding new policy; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [31331/13]

    Minister for Defence (Deputy Alan Shatter): The White Paper on Defence, published in 2000, has provided the policy framework for Defence for the last thirteen years. In the period since its publication, there have been significant changes in the defence and security environment and the defence policy framework has continued to evolve. In this context, the Government decided that there is a requirement to prepare a new White Paper on Defence. This will provide the policy framework for Defence, in all its aspects, for the next decade.

    Following Government approval, I initiated the preparation of a Green Paper on Defence. The Green Paper is intended to inform and stimulate a mature and informed debate about Ireland’s defence policy. When published, it will initiate a broad public consultative process which will provide for members of the public and interest groups to input their views as part of the process of developing the new White Paper on Defence.

    An interdepartmental group comprising representatives from the Departments of Defence, Taoiseach, Foreign Affairs and Trade, Justice and Equality as well as the Defence Forces and An Garda Síochána have undertaken a defence and security assessment. This is incorporated within the Green Paper. I have had broad discussions on the Green Paper with officials from my Department and the Defence Forces. In addition, the draft Green Paper was circulated to all Government Departments for their observations. All of these inputs have contributed to the final document.

    The Green Paper will set out an overview of the current defence policy framework, the changes that have occurred since the publication of the White Paper on Defence (2000) and an assessment of the challenges in the defence and security environment. These issues inform a number of policy focused questions which will be set out in the Green Paper and are intended to guide submissions.

    I hope to publish the Green Paper and initiate the White Paper public consultative process in the coming weeks. It is anticipated that the new White Paper on Defence will be approved by Government and published before June 2014.

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  8. #106
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    It is with profound regret I must announce, that due to work commitments and conflicts, I am now unable to give the commitment required to make a contribution as part of any IMO submission. I can only hope that someone else on this site, who has read the core of what I post here, will make a submission that would mirror any suggestions I would make.


    'Yvan eht Nioj'


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  9. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    It is with profound regret I must announce, that due to work commitments and conflicts, I am now unable to give the commitment required to make a contribution as part of any IMO submission. I can only hope that someone else on this site, who has read the core of what I post here, will make a submission that would mirror any suggestions I would make.


    'Yvan eht Nioj'
    I get the impression there's a few IMOers making their own submissions, I'm sure someone will carry your thoughts forward.

  10. #108
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    This document more or less sums up my thoughts. Very well put together too.

    https://sites.google.com/site/theirishmaritimeforum/

    SUMMARY




    The relationship between the various arms of the Irish Defence Forces was determined in the 1940s, at a time when Irish maritime jurisdiction was limited to three nautical miles from shore and the major threat was from interstate conflict in Europe. Irish defence policy was almost exclusively land-oriented.




    While many advances, in terms of resources and capability, have been made in all Arms of the Defence Forces the basic organisational structure is still rooted in the early part of the last century. It takes little account of Ireland’s island status or of the dramatic increases in Ireland's maritime, indeed oceanic, jurisdiction and responsibilities, which are now fully recognised in other fora, nationally and internationally. This has led to imbalances in Defence policy and decision making.




    The security situation on land has improved and the threats presented by internal conflict and instability have diminished to a large degree. At the same time the challenges posed by an expanded maritime domain have correspondingly increased. This situation presents an opportunity to shift the emphasis from largely land oriented defence and security to a more balanced posture by increasing the emphasis on controlling our maritime domain.




    There is an obvious and pressing need for a root-and-branch, open-minded approach to Irish defence planning and capability, not based on minor adjustments to the 1940’s status quo, but on recognition of the fundamentally changed circumstances of the 21st Century.

    It is to be hoped that the forthcoming White Paper will illustrate such an approach.



    The Irish Maritime Forum urges:

    • That the opportunity presented by this White Paper be grasped to develop a holistic policy for Irish maritime defence and security,
    • That there be senior and continuous Naval representation on the Steering and Working Groups preparing the White Paper,
    • That the position of the Navy within the Defence Organisation be upgraded to match international norms,
    • That the strength and composition of the navy be enhanced,
    • That Irish naval assets participate in UN/EU sponsored missions to promote international maritime security,
    • That our naval force be titled The Irish Navy (Cabhlach na h-Éireann),
    • That the balance between the elements of Ireland’s Defence Forces reflects that fact that we are an island nation.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  11. #109
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    There's an advert in An Cosantoir for personnel to make submissions through the chain of command for inclusion in the DF submission

  12. #110
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    There's an advert in An Cosantoir for personnel to make submissions through the chain of command for inclusion in the DF submission
    I can see a huge response to that. (said nobody, in the world, ever)


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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  14. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    There's an advert in An Cosantoir for personnel to make submissions through the chain of command for inclusion in the DF submission
    And with that, the Defence Forces procurement of black marker pens increased.

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  16. #112
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Sorry it isn't through CoC, it is to a DF email address

  17. #113
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    Today is the last day for submissions.

    Did anybody bother

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  19. #114
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    Was there not an extension on the deadline for submissions from groups and RAs??

  20. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by swiftandsure View Post
    was there not an extension on the deadline for submissions from groups and ras??
    no all due in yesterday

  21. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by moggy View Post
    no all due in yesterday
    Interesting.

  22. #117
    Major General ODIN's Avatar
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    Betting that RDFRA will have missed that deadline
    Last edited by ODIN; 12th October 2013 at 08:40.
    What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

  23. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODIN View Post
    Betting that RDFRA will have missed that deadline :P
    I have no idea, but I'm sure I'd heard somewhere that there was an extension in the deadline for groups and RAs to make their submissions/presentations.

    Has PDFORRA and RACO published their submissions at all?

  24. #119
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Green Paper on Defence

    403. Deputy Jack Wall asked the Minister for Defence the number of submissions he has received to date on the Green Paper on Defence consultations held by his Department; the expected time line for the White Paper on Defence; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [53117/13]

    Minister for Defence (Deputy Alan Shatter): The Green Paper on Defence, which was published earlier this year, initiated a public consultative process which will inform the development of the next White Paper on Defence. The response to the request for submissions has been very positive. 122 submissions were received from a wide and diverse range of sources. As part of the consultative process, a number of people who made written submissions have been invited to meet with civil and military staff of the Department of Defence and the Defence Forces. The purpose of these meetings is to provide the opportunity to certain individuals/organisations to elaborate further on their submission. It also allows the representatives from the Department of Defence and the Defence Forces to explore aspects of these submissions. These meetings are ongoing and will continue into early 2014.

    The White Paper on Defence is due to be completed and submitted to Government for approval in 2014.


    White Paper on Defence

    2. Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn asked the Minister for Defence if he will dispel concerns that the proud tradition of positive neutrality of this State will not be undermined as part of the process of developing the White Paper on Defence. [52920/13]

    Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: Recently a Red C poll revealed that eight of ten respondents favoured the retention of neutrality, which is a proud tradition. The Minister will be aware of concerns at the beginning of the receipt of submissions on the White Paper on Defence. I would like him to take the opportunity to allay those concerns and to reaffirm the principle of neutrality on behalf of the Irish people.

    Deputy Alan Shatter: This is an issue the Deputy returns to obsessively. The Green Paper on Defence, which was published earlier this year, initiated a broad consultative process, as the Deputy will be aware, that will inform the development of the next White Paper on Defence. One of the questions posed in the Green Paper was: "How can our policy of military neutrality be dovetailed with increasing requirements for collective security co-operation?" Our policy of military neutrality was formed in an era when interstate conflict was the key issue of national security for most states. The State’s policy of remaining outside military alliances has remained in place ever since. Thankfully, the threat of intestate war in Europe is substantially diminished.
    However, there are new and emerging threats in the defence and security environment. The reality is that the world has evolved to such an extent that no country alone can respond adequately to the threats in the defence and security environment. The range of threats set out in the assessment in the Green Paper is comprehensive. Inevitably, there will be threats and challenges that have not yet been anticipated. It is reasonable to assume that complex, interrelated and transnational security challenges will increase into the future. It is also reasonable to conclude that security challenges will require enhanced collective and comprehensive approach, and that there will be an increasing emphasis on security co-operation.

    I believe that continued support for the United Nations will remain a central point of our foreign policy approach and objectives. This includes the protection of human rights and of our overall security policy, including non-membership of military alliances. Support for the UN will also remain central to our overall security policy.

    Our Defence Forces are deployed as part of multinational and multi-agency responses for a broad range of security tasks, many of which contribute to the maintenance of international peace and stability. Our policy responses must realistically reflect current and future security challenges and should be able to accommodate the necessary responses, both national and collective, without prejudice to our policy of military neutrality.

    Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: First, Ireland is in a strong position to play a positive role in global conflicts through its neutrality. We are proud of the role our peacekeeping forces play in blue helmet operations on an ongoing basis. Second, with regard to conflict resolution, the lessons of our own peace process are being utilised across the world, most recently in Colombia. These lessons had a huge impact and people who came through the peace process assisted on an ongoing basis on the path to peace in that country. Third, we have a proud history in the provision of overseas development aid. We are one of the world leaders in that area. That is our role in the world and we do no need to be involved in military alliances to stake our claim and to do our bit for the world. What are the Minister's thoughts on those three pillars of positive neutrality? Are they sufficient or do we need more?

    Deputy Alan Shatter: I welcome the fact that the Deputy's party, Fianna Fáil and others contributed to the Green Paper process by making a submission. I was interested in Sinn Féin's submission in the context of the issue the Deputy has raised. It states, "The Green Paper on Defence states that military neutrality is a policy which was formed in the context of interstate armed conflict". We are agreed on that. The submission further states the Green Paper "is ill-fitted to respond to threats emanating from non-state actors such as terrorists". I know the Deputy's party is soft on terrorism but I am not sure to what extent he can suggest that military neutrality has a role to play in regard to terrorism. Is he suggesting that if terrorists explode a bomb in London or Madrid, we should proclaim our neutrality from the rooftops as some sort of moral standpoint of a higher echelon than those who say, "This is a bad thing, we are opposed to terrorists and we should join together in preventing innocent people being killed by terrorists"?

    An Ceann Comhairle: I thank the Minister.

    Deputy Alan Shatter: Sinn Féin in its submission referred to "the need for a human security-based approach", which seems to simply be that if we feed the world, there will be no terrorism.

    An Ceann Comhairle: The Minister is way over his time. I have to ask him to co-operate with the Chair. I will let him back in again.

    Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: The Minister is one of the greatest talents I have ever seen at answering a question he has not been asked. He has an incredible talent for going off on a different tangent.

    Deputy Alan Shatter: I wanted to assure the Deputy that I had read his submission.

    Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: There are three positive pillars of neutrality of which we are deeply proud in this country. We do not need to open Shannon Airport for aircraft to refuel and restock on their way to operations that are not backed by the international community and we do not need to be involved in military alliances.

    With regard to combatting the changed threat of terrorism, there is a range of exchanges of intelligence and co-operation through Europol and so on that everybody supports to tackle the threat. However, if Ireland can genuinely get itself back to a truly neutral position in the context of overseas development aid, conflict resolution and the lessons we have learned in our own country, we can play a much stronger role in combating the threat of terrorism than being involved in military alliances with countries that have fuelled it.

    Deputy Alan Shatter: I am somewhat puzzled as to what military alliances the Deputy thinks we are engaged in. We are a party to the European Common Security and Defence Policy. That is of importance to this State, as it is to the rest of Europe. If there are issues relating to cybersecurity or terrorism, we have an interest in this State in ensuring difficulties do not arise and in co-operating with other states regarding how we counteract those issues. We are engaged in Partnership for Peace, PfP, with NATO. NATO is like a four-letter word to some Members. PfP is about a group of like-minded nations coming together to provide peackeeping supports and humanitarian relief in regions where there are major difficulties. That does not taint or contaminate our military neutrality. It is about engagement, not isolation. It is about doing what we can to assist people across the world in conflict zones where there are difficulties instead of sticking our heads in the sand and moralising. I go for engagement, not for sticking one's head in the sand, moralising and waving a neutrality flag as if we have a superior moral compass directing us. We should be proud of our engagements internationally and of what our Defence Forces do.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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  26. #120
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    An amusing contribution from SF's Padraig McLochlann who the Minister correctly accuses of "obsessing" about neutrality which we all know has the potential to scupper any serious WP initiatives.

    McLochlann; "We are proud of the role our peacekeeping forces play in blue helmet operations on an ongoing basis. Second, with regard to conflict resolution, the lessons of our own peace process are being utilised across the world, most recently in Colombia." ..................is he referring to the Provos attempts to train the FARC?
    Last edited by Pure Hover; 12th December 2013 at 21:42.

  27. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pure Hover View Post
    ..................is he referring to the Provos attempts to train the FARC?
    that thought entered my head - the goal was so open that i assumed, not knowing the political provenance of this gentleman, that he was taking the piss out of SF.

    oh...

  28. #122
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    McLochlann's way of solving the worlds military problems http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2msbfN81Gm0.
    Last edited by sofa; 12th December 2013 at 23:01.

  29. #123
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    I thought to be neutral there had to be a war going on somewhere that may or may not affect national interests.

    Hasn't been one since 1939, so wheres all this neutrality shit at?

    Surely when the war ended the existence of belligerent no belligerent states and self imposed neutrality ended?

    Declaring neutrality means fcuk all,being able to defend it being the key. Look at the traditionally neutral states such as Sweden and Switzerland and look at their defence spending.

    The only way we could defend anything approaching neutrality would be forming an alliance which contradicts neutrality.

    I might be stupid, but I'll never go for election based on that, however it would seem that Scum Fein have getting elected for stupidity down to a fine art!..where do I sign up.....have my own black and decker for knee cappings, although I'd fail at having to shag Mary Lou
    Time for another break I think......

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  31. #124
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    shin fein are isolationests. Must easer to control a inward looking people

  32. #125
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    "if Ireland can genuinely get itself back to a truly neutral position".

    LOL

    Ah g'wan Sinn Fein, role out the "NATO compatible PC-9's" gambit again.

    I really don't think they're stupid enough to believe what they're saying - they're spouting nonsense because it's effective in reaching out to a certain type of Irish person, whose understanding of our military history & how we fit into the wider world, is effectively zilch.

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