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How long to conduct a section attack?

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  • How long to conduct a section attack?

    What army SIA competition?

    I hope that wasn't an hour and a half from the time they first came under fire !?

  • #2
    An hour and a half for a SIA is ridiculous.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Hello Alaska View Post
      An hour and a half for a SIA is ridiculous.
      Maybe it was because the platoon sergeant "shot" the IC and 2IC, and then every rifleman that took over, because they were taking too long!

      Comment


      • #4
        I was told recently that 90 mins is the maximum acceptable time given to put in a SIA.
        There are people out there that have take up to 4 hours!

        Comment


        • #5
          And here's me thinking it should be done and dusted inside 15 mins.
          "Attack your attic with a Steyr....as seen on the Late Late Show..."

          Comment


          • #6
            What army SIA competition?
            was held up to including 1996.

            And here's me thinking it should be done and dusted inside 15 mins.
            0nly in the video..

            I was told recently that 90 mins is the maximum acceptable time given to put in a SIA.
            There are people out there that have take up to 4 hours!
            There ya go!

            Maybe it was because the platoon sergeant "shot" the IC and 2IC, and then every rifleman that took over, because they were taking too long!

            DS had no input

            I hope that wasn't an hour and a half from the time they first came under fire !?
            Whenever else is there a requirement to put in a SIA?

            An hour and a half for a SIA is ridiculous.
            Average was an hour !!!

            And the title holders when the competition ceased, were...








































            1st Cavalry Squadron!!!!

            Something that never ceases to amaze me, just because the members here haven't witnessed it or at least heard about it makes them think it hasn't happened , isn't possible or just made up for the sake of a post.......

            A lot of things happened in the DF while most here were in fcuking nappies..get over it!
            Last edited by hptmurphy; 5 August 2012, 01:38.
            Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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            • #7
              The contact is "the contact", and circumstances, the ground and time available denote how you will deal with it. but if after an hour they haven't quit and buggered off perhaps a SIA isn't appropriate and there may be more Charlie out there and they REALLY want that piece of ground. Maybe that large friendly force behind us could help, our ammo is probably running low ...
              "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

              "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

              Comment


              • #8
                Are you sure your not thinking of the Platoon Attack Competition, held until around that time??

                If a section attack lasts that long:

                You have used all the coy's ammo
                Lost the initiative and momentum
                The move up the flank is a 10km
                Any casualties you have sustained are deceased

                If that was the time including battle prep and they were not hit up immediately on crossing the start line, then fair enough.
                Last edited by DeV; 5 August 2012, 11:15.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                  A lot of things happened in the DF while most here were in fcuking nappies..get over it!
                  I would use the present tense myself Murph
                  I'm not a number, I'm a free man.
                  Who is number 1?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    "Time is ammo".
                    Answers to this one on a postmortem card please. Ten minutes at rapid rate of fire for the Steyr is how many rounds?(Taking that you are only carrying first line ammo).
                    From that you will see how vital the Pln Sgts reserve ammo is,how vital his work party are and how vital good FCO's and winning the firefight are so you can slow down your rate of ammo expenditure .
                    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      If a SIA take 90 minutes to complete, the following has happened...

                      Your Bn Cmdr is dead or asleep
                      Your Coy Cmdr is dead or asleep
                      Your Pln Cmdr is dead or asleep
                      Your Pln Sgt has killed all of the above and legged it... Or is asleep
                      Upon all of the above, your Section has taken all your Coy's ammo for itself

                      No SIA should take 90 minutes, not a single one. It completely slows down the Pln, Coy, Bn etc. advance, requires an insane amount of ammo or else a very quick case of winning the firefight followed by nothing more than a hope that the enemy won't pop up again, requires a distinct lack of agression and quite possibly the slowest move to the FAL and assault in the world.

                      If the competition was to include Battle Prep and quite a patrol until contact was initiated well then 90 minutes could perhaps be feasible but even then it's a stretch. Then again, All Army competitions tend to lean towards being retarded so Lord knows what Sections were doing to try and gain points.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Now, just to set the record straight, I have no battlefield experience nor do I want any.

                        90 minutes seems a very long timeframe for what is, per the manual, a 3(10)-v-1(3) firefight. 4 hours is just of the scale, IMHO. I would be of the opinion that the whole dynamics of the specific situation and the wider battlefield environment would be changing, so the above times seems very long and could/would leave the Section open to all sorts of problems, counter attacks, indirect fire, shortages of ammo, fatigue, etc.

                        From memory the Falklands would be a good example of the SIA and PIA, on a high tempo and rolling basis. Anyone got any info on how long it took the Brits, on average, to execute a SIA? Also, did they revise their manuals/tatics after the event to reflect what they encountered?

                        Now, the ignorant like me will sit back and wait for the experts to slag of the Tpt
                        I'm not a number, I'm a free man.
                        Who is number 1?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Are you sure your not thinking of the Platoon Attack Competition, held until around that time??
                          Cavalry Squadrons don't employ platoons........they don't compete in platoon based exercises!!

                          I happen to be there during the training for the competitions in 92/93 and gain in 94 as I was doing duties every week in Fermoy with 1 Cav.

                          The contact is "the contact", and circumstances, the ground and time available denote how you will deal with it. but if after an hour they haven't quit and buggered off perhaps a SIA isn't appropriate and there may be more Charlie out there and they REALLY want that piece of ground. Maybe that large friendly force behind us could help, our ammo is probably running lo
                          If a SIA take 90 minutes to complete, the following has happened...

                          Your Bn Cmdr is dead or asleep
                          Your Coy Cmdr is dead or asleep
                          Your Pln Cmdr is dead or asleep
                          Your Pln Sgt has killed all of the above and legged it... Or is asleep
                          Upon all of the above, your Section has taken all your Coy's ammo for itself

                          No SIA should take 90 minutes, not a single one. It completely slows down the Pln, Coy, Bn etc. advance, requires an insane amount of ammo or else a very quick case of winning the firefight followed by nothing more than a hope that the enemy won't pop up again, requires a distinct lack of agression and quite possibly the slowest move to the FAL and assault in the world.

                          If the competition was to include Battle Prep and quite a patrol until contact was initiated well then 90 minutes could perhaps be feasible but even then it's a stretch.
                          As we move rapidly along from Reality and forget that its only an exercise and every scenario will be employed to gain points

                          Then again, All Army competitions tend to lean towards being retarded so Lord knows what Sections were doing to try and gain points.
                          Exactly!!!!!!!!

                          It did happen and this is why it happened...its not real!!!!!!!
                          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Full SIA in 90 min... yea if you take into account what is involved, but the magic word concurrent activity lessons that time. (with out going into to much detail restricted information etc etc)
                            IC has to do his "bit", yea they can be a muppet and look over the ditch and guess left or right or walk up the sides sure it only blanks, for those who have done it, crawling up the side of field takes as long as it takes, there is also the return journey * 2 (left and right flanks), plenty of time to make your plan of attack. Don't forget to ask to put in the SIA, So the PLC and PLS know wtf is going on and the Sgt can send forward what is needed, "Orders" Then crawl your section up, the attack should be done in 90 seconds, reorg and movement forward of other sections.

                            Oh and if you see a Sgt roaring his head off for Ammo cas, shoot him.
                            1. s/he/it is a bullet sponge.
                            2. letting the "bad guys" know the Pl is weakened until a resupply
                            3. s/he/it is giving your position away.

                            As posted early on in this thread about buying boots, DON'T if the PDF officers and staff want to see the RDF to there standards, then give them to tools to do so, ye do no favours to yourselves by buying kit that should be issued. And yes personal and hygiene items are excluded to the above.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Assuming that each man has 10 mags on him, and assuming each man has the rapid fire discipline of 1 round every 2 seconds, were the fire control coordinated over all three fire teams, in theory you'd only have 30 mins of suppressive fire at best. 33 mins when you add in the 10% that the Pl Sgt throws in (assuming that the Platoon is behind you). That's not taking into account that the assault party won't be firing the whole time either, so you can assume that they'll be holding back a few mags each to get to the FAL, so that's even less trigger time. Add friendly casualties into the mix, and that's even less time spent firing. Yes you could break the FCOs down to individual riflemen, but then are you necessarily providing superior fire power against your opposition?

                              Not only that, as Opfor, you'd want to be one dumb fĂșck to sit in the same spot for 30 mins (let alone 90) waiting for the enemy, who outnumber you and who you just pissed off, to flank your position and close in on you.

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