Pardon for the Disowned Army

[GoneToTheCanner]

Like Staffs everywhere, the German General Staff made up plans to invade or defend against all-comers, which were discarded, used, modified as desired. generating one to invade Ireland wasn't an odd thing to do, it was simply a contingency until someone decided to activate it.

regards
GttC

[RoyalGreenJacket]

So?? The DF is still the DF weather it was 1940 or 2012.The BA is also the BA then and now.Both are uniformed organisations of the state charged with state defence and with a uniform code of conduct that we all signed up to when we swore an oath,most on a bible.So because it was WW2 it was OK to desert your comrades and your country when they needed you most??Bollocks.


I cant say what the BA would do but i do believe ye have a fairly strict military law.Desertion in time of war would be a major offence.In fact i believe it was a capital offence here until only recently ,possibly the same with ye.Am i correct??

I am not saying what happened to those men an their families was the right punishment.In fact i believe the Government got involved in what should have been a military matter and took it out of the DF's hands. What SHOULD have happened is the troops who deserted should have been arrested on return to ireland and court martialed.They should have been tried in a military court and judgement found against them.They should have done their time,if that was the punishment awarded, and then dishonorably discharged.That would have been it.Should their families have been persecuted?No.Nor should they have been pardoned.

i do more or less agree with you apod - the Irish Government handled it badly and to that end they did blacklist and discriminate against not just the soldier, but their family too and to that end this is why i feel to pardon them is the right thing to do.

fair one if the Irish Government / Military did deal with them as you and i would expect but they didn't, and what we have now is the end result in making amends to that wrong decision many moons ago in a different time.

i commend the decision to pardon them, just like we pardoned those 'shot at dawn' for cowardice etc.

if punishment is inappropriate, we often have to over compensate to redress the situation.

[hedgehog]

There were over 4500 deserters, we had just come. Out of a national emergency, the country had less cash then than it has now, to prosecute them all would have bankrupted us even more and where would we have imprisoned them.

The general punishment was harsh, the sanction were harsh but the crime they all did was one of the shittiest things a soldier can do along with robbing from your buddies and riding a comrades bird.

They did the crime most of them have the good grace to say feck all, take the punishment, take the job in Guinnesses, Irish lights and the many English controlled industries and get the pension and the RBL welfare packages etc, and of course there was those who just wanted every fukcing thing and enlisted the oh so helpful British media who were only to happy to portray them as martyrs.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hedgie, you are full of shit. If you believe that deserters slid straight into cushy jobs and enjoyed the life of reilly thereafter, you are very misinformed. The treatment meted out to the deserters and their entirely innocent families was excessive, unworthy and spiteful. You should find yourself a veteran of those times and ask them what life was really like in the Irish Army in those days. My Grandfather was one. When I asked him why men left to fight for the British, he said that the Irish Army was hard work, riddled with drink, boredom, hardship, dreadful pay, dreadful living conditions and people were always trying to get out, legally, to leave and sign up to the British Army to fight. When I asked him why he didn't go, he said that he was too old, had a mother to keep and had already lost a brother to the Crown. What is also galling is that the State had no problem persecuting deserters yet never felt the need or the will to be so harsh with the IRA, our own home-grown enemies of the State. next time, think before you shoot.

regards
GttC

[DeV]

i do more or less agree with you apod - the Irish Government handled it badly and to that end they did blacklist and discriminate against not just the soldier, but their family too and to that end this is why i feel to pardon them is the right thing to do.

fair one if the Irish Government / Military did deal with them as you and i would expect but they didn't, and what we have now is the end result in making amends to that wrong decision many moons ago in a different time.

i commend the decision to pardon them, just like we pardoned those 'shot at dawn' for cowardice etc.

if punishment is inappropriate, we often have to over compensate to redress the situation.

You are comparing people who couldn't fight due to illness to people who left a nearly defenceless country to go to one who protect a comparatively well defended country?!

[hedgehog]

What is also galling is that the State had no problem persecuting deserters

Actually the problem was that the majority of them were treated extrajudicially in that they werent tried by a Court Martial.

yet never felt the need or the will to be so harsh with the IRA,

Some interned some shot- I hope you dont think we should have treated the deserters ina similar vein.

If you believe that deserters slid straight into cushy jobs and enjoyed the life of reilly thereafter, you are very misinformed.

I cant actually remember reading about any of them starving to death- however the major employers at the time (apart from the state) were British owned firms and they showed preferences for ex British Military- so if Paddy who served with 5 Bn Dublin during the emergency went for a job in Guninness against Mick who served initially with 5 Bn Dublin and then deserted and joined HM forces during the war- good old Mick was the one going to get the good cushy job-

When I asked him why men left to fight for the British, he said that the Irish Army was hard work, riddled with drink, boredom, hardship, dreadful pay, dreadful living conditions and people were always trying to get out, legally, to leave and sign up to the British Army to fight.

I have no doubt about it- but once you make a commitment thats it-

Hedgie, you are full of shit.

There is no doubt about that GTTC- however I feel strongly on this subject- I am not saying that they should have been flogged I am just saying they were dealt with at the time in the only way that they could be dealt with at the time, whereas the sanctions that were handed out to them was hard, it was no harder than the sanctions that would have been handed out by HM Forces if they had scarpered from the Brits ( and they would have done hard time in prison as well).

[Gunner Who?]

Hear are more bits of info.to add some light on the subject:-

http://www.forthesakeofexample.com/

http://books.national-army-museum.ac.uk/list-of-personnel-of-the-irish-defence-forces-dismissed-for-des-pr-31799.html

http://www.robertwidders.co.uk/

http://vimeopro.com/nlieventarchive/watch/video/44029496

http://warwickshire.greatbritishlife.co.uk/community/blogs/detail/my-father--the-deserter/id/6421/

[Gunner Who?]

moreThis review is from: List of Personnel of the Irish Defence Forces Dismissed for Desertion During the Second World War (Paperback)
Readers should be mindful that Dail Eireann/the Irish Parliament as a political chamber is precluded from ousting the jurisdiction of an Irish military court of law, consequently the subsequent conviction, punishment and dismissal on the 8 August 1945 pursuant to Emergency Powers Order 362 of persons from the Irish Defence Forces for the alleged military offence of desertion is legally suspect. Therefore, as no Irish defence force court-martial/military tribunal/court of law was convened pursuant to the Defence Force (Temporary Provisions) Act 1923 and its Successor Defence Force Acts in order to prosecute accused defence force personnel named as deserters in the Irish Government Blacklist, the quotations 'courtmartialed after death', the Irish Government 'court-martialled', 'court-martialled' by the Irish Government, used by some authors to describe the political process enacted by the de Valera government to dismiss and punish these soldiers post war and post mortem is misleading and erroneous. Our website explains in more detail.

info

[Gunner Who?]

and finally
This review is from: List of Personnel of the Irish Defence Forces Dismissed for Desertion During the Second World War (Paperback)
This is a fascinating document. It contains 4,987 names, addresses, dates of birth, and other personal information, of the men who deserted from the Irish Defence Force during WW2, to join the British armed forces. It was the basic research tool for my book, Spitting On A Soldier's Grave. Spitting on a Soldier's Grave: Court Martialed After Death, the Story of the Forgotten Irish and British Soldiers

I interviewed some of the men on this List. Though what most people will be unaware of is that many of the men on this List of Personnel... died fighting to defeat Nazism, long before they were added to this document. The List is a fascinating research tool, which I've now digitised. Help other customers find the most helpful reviews
Was this review helpful to you? Yes No Report abuse | Permalink
Comment Comment



5.0 out of 5 stars A secret list of 5,000 Irish soldiers dismissed for deserting and joining the British Forces duirng the Second World War., 28 Oct 2010
By C. Buckland (UK) - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME) This review is from: List of Personnel of the Irish Defence Forces Dismissed for Desertion During the Second World War (Paperback)
It may not be widely known but a large number of Irish soldiers deserted their own army during WWII (Eire remained neutral) and crossed the sea to join the British army. Once the war was over these men were officially dismissed the service and their names published in this confidential document. The formal title of the document is "List of personnel of the Defence Forces dismissed for desertion in time of National Emergency pursuant to the terms of Emergency Powers (No 362) Order 1945 (S.R. & O. 1945 No 198) or Section 13 of the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1946 (No 7/1946)." In it are listed, in alphabetical order, some 5,000 or more names with Army No, last recorded address, date of birth, declared occupation prior to enlistment in Defence Forces, and date of dismissal from Defence Forces. In the latter case the date is amost invariably 8 August 1945. This document was circulated to all civil service departments and state run services, e.g post office, health service, state owned bus , rail, air and shipping companies etc. This was obviously intended to bar them from any form of government employment. It is a fascinating document and one which I have never been aware of before. Help other customers find the most helpful reviews
Was this review helpful to you? Yes No Report abuse | Permalink
Comment Comment

[DeV]

Here's a question:

How did the Irish Government know who had joined the British forces?

Without the help of the British armed forces/State?

[Vamp369]

Theres seems to be two isssues mixed up here.

1: The fact that some DF members deserted to the British Army during WWII

and 2: How the deserters where treated upon their subsequent return.

Now I would be of the view that if the DF and government pardoned the deserters, they may as well say if you desert, eventually you will be forgiven. This is fundamentally wrong. The key difference about being a soldier compared to any other job is that you will do what you are told and serve the duration of your contract or unless you leave the DF according to regulations. Its that simple, in black and white in the Defence Act the repercussions of desertion.

BUT having said that, how the deserters were treated was unfair and heavy handed. They did not have a proper court martial.

I believe the government should apologise for the excessive punishment but NOT pardon the deserters. A pardon is just wrong.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hedgie, I'll check your assertion about Guinness from a contact within. I'd disagree on your opinion on it because my contact, resolutely Irish, got into Guinness because of the rigidly-enforced "who's yer dad" Act, regardless of religion or war service. An act which was also the SOP in plenty of other Irish companies.
regards
GttC

[Gunner Who?]

Wrong to assume all Irish deserters were Allied veterans




MICHAEL KENNEDY Irist Times

OPINION: IN THE debate on granting pardons to second World War deserters from the Defence Forces, the question of where the men on de Valera’s deserters’ blacklist actually deserted to might seem an odd one to pose.

Perhaps this is because the answer has already been assumed: all those on the blacklist joined the Allied forces. Although the blacklist underpins the entire debate, little thought has been given to what the document itself tells us on this point.

The blacklist of 4,983 deserters has been called “Ireland’s list of shame”. It is seen as the nationally damning roll-call of those who deserted the Defence Forces, fought with the Allies to liberate Europe from Nazi tyranny and were subsequently disowned by de Valera, the man who signed Hitler’s book of condolences.

Could the Irish authorities compile such a list? They could not. They compiled a blacklist of personnel dismissed for desertion, being absent without leave from the Defence Forces for more than 180 days. The list gives Army number, name, last recorded address, date of birth, occupation and date of desertion.

The Irish authorities could not accurately say where these deserters had gone.

A 1945 Department of Defence cabinet memorandum suggested “that the majority of them are or have been serving in the British Forces or are in civilian employment in Great Britain and Northern Ireland”. It did not speculate further. It did not provide figures. It did not ask where the minority might have gone.

Many of the deserters were later decorated for valour by the Allies. One cannot ignore their sacrifice and achievement. That is not at issue here. Rather it is to suggest that 2012 interpretations of the deserters blacklist misread the evidence.

A similar situation existed almost 70 years ago. Then, as now, many claimed – as a 1945 department of external affairs memo noted – that the de Valera government aimed solely “to penalise men, not for desertion from the Irish Army, but for joining the British Forces”. In the view of external affairs, this attitude did not accept the seriousness of the offence of desertion.

Under Emergency Powers Order 362, returning deserters were subject to swingeing penalties, including being denied State jobs for seven years. It was attacked in the Dáil in 1945, but deputies agreed that desertion warranted harsh measures.

Fianna Fáil’s Harry Colley explained that the order showed deserters “that their duty was first to their own”. Labour Party deputy Jim Larkin jnr amplified the point: “Our own country claims our first duty.”

Today’s pro-pardon campaigners do not contest that the deserters committed a military crime. They argue instead that they were deprived of their right to due legal process.

This argument has elicited considerable sympathy. However, many expressions of sympathy are confusingly conflated with wider issues. It is not clear whether public distaste for the emergency powers order and the blacklist is based largely on the belief that the punishment for desertion was too harsh; or because of a belated desire to honour Allied veterans; or because of some national sense of shame over wartime neutrality.

All of these are legitimate subjects for debate. But the desertion debate should centre around the core issue: these men deserted the Irish Defence Forces. It should also centre around accurate facts.

It is clear that the belief, expressed both in 1945 and today, that many enlisted in the British forces, is correct. Yet all we have is a list of deserters and the knowledge that 100 or so of those named on that list definitely joined the Allied forces and are still alive. The remainder have not been accounted for.

Belligerent forces service and pension records and family histories can fill in some further details. But it is an error to transform an entire blacklist of Defence Forces deserters into an entire blacklist of Allied war veterans. We simply do not know why the men on this list deserted, where they deserted to or what they did subsequently.

Should those who deserted to take up civilian war work in Britain and Northern Ireland be seen as war heroes or economic migrants? Surprises of ultimate allegiance and intention may lie within the blacklist.

What hostages to fortune lie ahead if a universal pardon is given? Perhaps an opt-in approach to pardons, with the sole issue facing each applicant being their desertion from the Irish Defence Forces, would be a way forward.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr Michael Kennedy is executive editor of the Royal Irish Academy’s Documents on Irish Foreign Policy series. difp.ie, Twitter @DIFP_RIA

[Gunner Who?]

Here's a question:

How did the Irish Government know who had joined the British forces?

Without the help of the British armed forces/State?

My memory is that people going AWOL in the Army were published in weekly Unit Routine Orders.
That is how info moves upwards to Command, AHQ and the DoD
Military Archives have some bound (yearly)copies of such Unit R.O's

[DeV]

My memory is that people going AWOL in the Army were published in weekly Unit Routine Orders.
That is how info moves upwards to Command, AHQ and the DoD
Military Archives have some bound (yearly)copies of such Unit R.O's

Correct but how do they know who joined the British forces?