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  1. #1
    Closed Account Docman's Avatar
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    RDFRA Motions 2012 - discuss

    http://www.rdfra.ie/motions.asp

    Motions submitted for conference 2012
    1. The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to negotiate with the Department of Defence an end to the promotion embargo on the reserve forces and allow all outstanding promotions ASAP
    2. The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to negotiate with the Department of Defence a recruitment drive for the Army Reserve and Naval Service Reserve.
    3. The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to negotiate with the Department of Defence the provision of a training centre for displaced reservists in Mullingar without further delay
    4. The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to negotiate with the Department of Defence to ensure that the training hours that could not be fulfilled by membership of No. 3 Gun Battery 54 RAR due to the closure of Columb Barracks Mullingar will be allowed these hours in lieu thus allowing for qualification for gratuity. [COMPOSITE MOTION SUGGESTED]
    5. The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to ensure that the training hours that could not be fulfilled by the membership of our battery due to the local barracks closing will be allotted these hours in lieu and qualify for gratuity. [COMPOSITE MOTION SUGGESTED]
    6. The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to negotiate with the Department of Defence to ensure that the training hours that could not be fulfilled by members due to the closure of Barracks will be allowed these hours in lieu, thus allowing for qualification for gratuity. THIS IS THE PROPOSED COMPOSITE MOTION
    7. The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to engage with the relevant authorities to progress the payment of tech pay for all relevant members of the RDF as per CS4
    8. The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to negotiatewith the Military Authorities that any recruitment to the RDF in the future would be carried out separately to the PDF, and that potential recruits enlisted to the RDF would not be eligible for employment in the PDF until a twelve month training period had elapsed.
    9. The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to engage with the Military Authorities that sufficient qualified Medical Personnel are available to conduct approved medicals for recruits and course participants in the future for all formations in a timely manner
    10. The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to ensure that the current rural based sub units of the reserve defence force are retained, and where the reorganisation of the Defence Forces takes place that no effect is inflicted on the sub units concerned.
    11. The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to commence discussions with the Department of Defence & the Military Authorities to prevent the reoccurrence of the problems in communication that led to the late announcement of mandays for recruitment and prevented potential recruits from attending training periods within formations
    12. The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to engage with the military authorities to ensure that adequate staffing levels for administrative purposes be maintained for RDF sub units after the proposed reorganisation of the defence forces and the current level of retirements from the current PDF cadre.
    13. The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to help get outstanding FCA medals issued to our members.
    14. The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to pursue the issue of the new RDF service medal be issued to all members of the Reserve that have 7 years service since 1 October 2005
    15. The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to liaise with the Military Authorities to ensure that all personnel who currently qualify for Annual Training Camps and courses next year will be facilitated, given the current mandate that all personnel over the age of forty years must have an annual medical completed prior to presenting for training camps.
    16. The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to enter into negotiations with the Military Authorities to ensure that all senior NCO vacancies available to trained and experienced personnel should not be blocked by the appointment of a retiring PDF NCO.
    17. The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to reduce the RDFRA membership fee from 4.5% to 2% from 2012 until the current austerity have receded sufficiently to allow for a review and to allow members and potential members a more competitive organization for the future.
    Discuss!

    I like the idea that they are finally putting them on the website and not trying to hide them like they have done previously. For once, the ordinary member can actually see them.
    And the number of motions are way down. And gone are the usual rash of ones looking for this & that to be issued when it already is.
    Last edited by Docman; 15th August 2012 at 01:19.

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  3. #2
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    17 may not be a good idea. While austerity exists, you also have a much smaller pool paying sub. To reduce Sub further would make the total collected barely enough to cover stationary costs.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  4. #3
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Docman View Post
    http://www.rdfra.ie/motions.asp

    Motions submitted for conference 2012


    Discuss!

    I like the idea that they are finally putting them on the website and not trying to hide them like they have done previously. For once, the ordinary member can actually see them.
    And the number of motions are way down. And gone are the usual rash of ones looking for this & that to be issued when it already is.
    The motions being on the site may be a double edged sword - DOD will know the agenda, but it is more open.

    The thing about issues is PDF personnel refusing to issue kit on the scale of issue.

  5. #4
    not dead yet ollie's Avatar
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    At first glance nothing too outrageous .

    However, no.8 : The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to negotiate with the Military Authorities that any recruitment to the RDF in the future would be carried out separately to the PDF, and that potential recruits enlisted to the RDF would not be eligible for employment in the PDF until a twelve month training period had elapsed.

    Not sure if thats a runner, given the stop/start nature of PDF recruiting would anyone wishing to go into the PDF risk joining the RDF and potentially disqualifying themselves for a year ? I can see why it was suggested, but dont see it as a runner imo.
    Anyone need a spleen ?

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  7. #5
    Teuton Foot Soldier ZULU's Avatar
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    No.8
    The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to negotiatewith the Military Authorities that any recruitment to the RDF in the future would be carried out separately to the PDF, and that potential recruits enlisted to the RDF would not be eligible for employment in the PDF until a twelve month training period had elapsed.
    My view would be that all recruitment be centralised. All people wishing to apply should go through the same process. Psychometric, fitness, interview. Putting a 12month contract clause to the RDF would filter those who are looking to just mark time before entering PDF and those who see part time as more fitting to their lives.
    However my belief is that recruitment needs to be centralised for the entire defence forces and constant phased training - moving away from bulk induction of huge recruit numbers.
    "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

  8. #6
    Teuton Foot Soldier ZULU's Avatar
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    No. 10
    The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to ensure that the current rural based sub units of the reserve defence force are retained, and where the reorganisation of the Defence Forces takes place that no effect is inflicted on the sub units concerned.
    Unlikely. All units both PDF and RDF will be affected in some way by the Re-Org. VFM is out within next 2 months so will answer that one with what I assume will be cold hard reality.
    "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

  9. #7
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    How much do RDFRA get from the Govt?
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  10. #8
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZULU View Post
    Unlikely. All units both PDF and RDF will be affected in some way by the Re-Org. VFM is out within next 2 months so will answer that one with what I assume will be cold hard reality.
    How many times have we heard that!!

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  12. #9
    Ex-bagger Big Al's Avatar
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    Was Motion 12 suggested by PDFORRA?
    You're even dumber than I tell people

    You might have been infected but you never were a bore

  13. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    How much do RDFRA get from the Govt?
    http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?...1-07-14.1424.0

  14. #11
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    I think 17 would be suicide for the organisation.
    12 is flogging a dead horse, there should be a motion in instead that should insist that an RDF unit be allowed exist regardless as to what happens to their cadre.
    The second part of 8 is dodgy.

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  16. #12
    not dead yet ollie's Avatar
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    Re no.17 reducing the rate of subscription. I would ve assumed that with numbers in the RDF falling that there would also be a similar fall in RDFRA's membership although probably not as severe, so how do they plan to finance themselves if they are going to slash the rate ?

    Either the rate was too high and they ve a sizeable piggy bank, they are planning on cutting the running costs or they hope to recieve greater funding.

    Its an admirable move to make but it could prove very costly if in the end they end up in debt
    Anyone need a spleen ?

  17. #13
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    At this stage, these motions haven't been adopted.

    The way it works is a sub-unit committee (or I think the NE can) suggests something.... it is then voted on at the BDC and if pasted becomes RDFRA policy.

  18. #14
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    Motions are submitted by sub-units, they are vetted by the standing orders committee and as long as they are not outside the scope of representation or have been passed (and are therefore already policy) by an ADC in the last 3 years then they go before the ADC. It will be up to people on the day to speak against it if they think it is bad for the association.

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    Folks..
    Can you not see the Government is getting damn all back from the existence of the
    Reserves, the Naval Reserve sublement the fulltimers on the Vessels, i believe..
    However what in the name of Jaysus do the Army reserves do...
    the VFM report should be interesting...
    By the way i spend nearly 20 in the FCA/RDF and comparing to what the Garda Reserves do, there's a big difference..
    Garda Reserves turn up mainly on a friday or a Saturday night which can be busy, get their €1,000 a year..whereas you could turn up for weekend and get marked in for 8 hours..might be a paid weekend or mightn't...

    Nice fancy motions but tell me i'm wrong the RDFRA is peopled by older members and for the most part RDF Officers..
    i would love to see the RDF as been usefull for doing something beside Guard duties for the PDF..but the Cival Defence are more hands on...

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  21. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greengiant View Post
    Folks..
    Can you not see the Government is getting damn all back from the existence of the
    Reserves, the Naval Reserve sublement the fulltimers on the Vessels, i believe..
    However what in the name of Jaysus do the Army reserves do...
    the VFM report should be interesting...
    By the way i spend nearly 20 in the FCA/RDF and comparing to what the Garda Reserves do, there's a big difference..
    Garda Reserves turn up mainly on a friday or a Saturday night which can be busy, get their €1,000 a year..whereas you could turn up for weekend and get marked in for 8 hours..might be a paid weekend or mightn't...

    Nice fancy motions but tell me i'm wrong the RDFRA is peopled by older members and for the most part RDF Officers..
    i would love to see the RDF as been usefull for doing something beside Guard duties for the PDF..but the Cival Defence are more hands on...
    Wow talk about sweeping statements; Btw do i write the Chief of staff or Michael D Higgins to tell him i never got my commissioning papers ? Im a "young" Unit Rep in the RDFRA and let me say this, its a far different organization than it was!

    Sure you could say that the Gov gets SFA back from the DF as a whole ? You cannot compare the Garda Reserve to the DF, AGS Provide front line services which are visible to the public; Half the fellas in the RDF are running this country in their civi lifes! If after 20 years you could not see what value the FCA/RDF provide i would be very shocked; You sit there and talk with some of the old PDF skins and ask them about the RDF you might get a very different story.

    I know what the Army Reserve does, most of the people in the DF know what the reserve does and in the coming years the reserve may have to do alot more with alot less.

    Im a proud member of the reserve and i cannot believe someone is telling me the countless hours i put in is not value for money, i pay around 6k in tax each year and i have to buy my own Private Health insurance, same for my pension; Are you telling me that i haven't earned the 400 a year i get off the DF of my own money?
    Squad look this way, i will give a full and complete demonstration on how to post.
    Type 1-2-3-4 fact check and POST

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  22. #17
    Closed Account Docman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greengiant View Post
    Folks..
    Can you not see the Government is getting damn all back from the existence of the
    Reserves, the Naval Reserve sublement the fulltimers on the Vessels, i believe..
    However what in the name of Jaysus do the Army reserves do...

    i would love to see the RDF as been usefull for doing something beside Guard duties for the PDF..but the Cival Defence are more hands on...
    It isn't what they do or don't do - it is what they are ALLOWED to do. It is easy to say that an organisation has no value for money when any chance they have of showing that value is prevented from happening.

    I'm sure if the PDF was confined to barracks with no ATCP, overseas or emergency role, out of sight and out of mind, there would be major Qs as to their value.
    But we all know the value of the PDF because of all the roles and jobs that they do perform. The RDF has a lot of potential value but is not allowed to show it.

    Why, well that is is another question.
    Last edited by Docman; 16th August 2012 at 22:09.

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  24. #18
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greengiant View Post
    Folks..


    Nice fancy motions but tell me i'm wrong the RDFRA is peopled by older members and for the most part RDF Officers..
    i would love to see the RDF as been usefull for doing something beside Guard duties for the PDF..but the Cival Defence are more hands on...
    You are wrong.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  25. #19
    not dead yet ollie's Avatar
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    The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to negotiate with the Department of Defence an end to the promotion embargo on the reserve forces and allow all outstanding promotions ASAP Probably no movement until after the VFM report

    The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to negotiate with the Department of Defence a recruitment drive for the Army Reserve and Naval Service Reserve. same as above

    The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to negotiate with the Department of Defence the provision of a training centre for displaced reservists in Mullingar without further delay no problem with this except should ve been dealt with by now.

    The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to negotiate with the Department of Defence to ensure that the training hours that could not be fulfilled by membership of No. 3 Gun Battery 54 RAR due to the closure of Columb Barracks Mullingar will be allowed these hours in lieu thus allowing for qualification for gratuity. [COMPOSITE MOTION SUGGESTED] reasonable request due to the circumstances

    The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to ensure that the training hours that could not be fulfilled by the membership of our battery due to the local barracks closing will be allotted these hours in lieu and qualify for gratuity. [COMPOSITE MOTION SUGGESTED] as above

    The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to negotiate with the Department of Defence to ensure that the training hours that could not be fulfilled by members due to the closure of Barracks will be allowed these hours in lieu, thus allowing for qualification for gratuity. THIS IS THE PROPOSED COMPOSITE MOTION reasonable request if applied to those with a record of attending and not just applied to all

    The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to engage with the relevant authorities to progress the payment of tech pay for all relevant members of the RDF as per CS4 should be the case already, if they are entitled to it.

    The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to negotiatewith the Military Authorities that any recruitment to the RDF in the future would be carried out separately to the PDF, and that potential recruits enlisted to the RDF would not be eligible for employment in the PDF until a twelve month training period had elapsed. posted my thoughts already, non runner imo

    The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to engage with the Military Authorities that sufficient qualified Medical Personnel are available to conduct approved medicals for recruits and course participants in the future for all formations in a timely manner no issue with this, if there are qualified people to do so

    The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to ensure that the current rural based sub units of the reserve defence force are retained, and where the reorganisation of the Defence Forces takes place that no effect is inflicted on the sub units concerned. No action till post VFM, imo such units are living on borrowed time

    The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to commence discussions with the Department of Defence & the Military Authorities to prevent the reoccurrence of the problems in communication that led to the late announcement of mandays for recruitment and prevented potential recruits from attending training periods within formations WTF ??

    The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to engage with the military authorities to ensure that adequate staffing levels for administrative purposes be maintained for RDF sub units after the proposed reorganisation of the defence forces and the current level of retirements from the current PDF cadre. Dept looking to reduce cadre no increase

    The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to help get outstanding FCA medals issued to our members. This was AN ISSUE when i left 4 years ago and its still one ?

    The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to pursue the issue of the new RDF service medal be issued to all members of the Reserve that have 7 years service since 1 October 2005 has the new medal even been minted yet or what exactly is the issue ?

    The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to liaise with the Military Authorities to ensure that all personnel who currently qualify for Annual Training Camps and courses next year will be facilitated, given the current mandate that all personnel over the age of forty years must have an annual medical completed prior to presenting for training camps. looks to me like someone is looking for a way to get those who are unfit and wont pass the medical onto camp anyway

    The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to enter into negotiations with the Military Authorities to ensure that all senior NCO vacancies available to trained and experienced personnel should not be blocked by the appointment of a retiring PDF NCO. explain this to me please ?

    The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to reduce the RDFRA membership fee from 4.5% to 2% from 2012 until the current austerity have receded sufficiently to allow for a review and to allow members and potential members a more competitive organization for the future. already posted about this

    my 2 cents worth
    Last edited by ollie; 16th August 2012 at 17:02.
    Anyone need a spleen ?

  26. #20
    Closed Account Docman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ollie View Post
    The Annual Delegate Conference directs the National Executive to pursue the issue of the new RDF service medal be issued to all members of the Reserve that have 7 years service since 1 October 2005 has the new medal even been minted yet or what exactly is the issue ?
    I have a letter dated 2010 saying the new RDF Service Medal was already being manufactured and would be ready for issue "shortly".

  27. #21
    not dead yet ollie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Docman View Post
    I have a letter dated 2010 saying the new RDF Service Medal was already being manufactured and would be ready for issue "shortly".
    The great thing about "shortly" is that it can mean minutes, days, or for the DF, years
    Anyone need a spleen ?

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    Why didn't the integrated sections take off, i was involved in that, early 2007, it was what the RDF should be all about..getting fit and been able to jump into the PDF role as practical as possible..
    i believe it is now mandatory to have the IT's (fitness tests/runs etc) done before you are allowed on a promotional or career course...should have been done ages ago..look at the Army Reserve over in the UK, (formally TA)..start the evening with a parade do your training and end it with a run! ..(well that's what we used to do in the late 80's in Cardiff) could have changed..

    in reply to the above , ya the motions are great, but the Govt is starving the Org of recruits..

    even to get your service medal is hard work!

    National Executive Committee is full of older men! i wouldn't say auld fellas for the most part
    who don't represent the type of people who would naturally be in a reserve defense forces i.e. younger males and females..

    i am sorry to say, but most people think the RDF is a bit of crack and you do feck all except dress up and drink!

    but when it comes to your AGM, Shatter will be down there in the Curragh or wherever and praising ya, and saying he believes in the concept, but not backing ya!
    Last edited by Greengiant; 16th August 2012 at 20:57.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cryos View Post
    Wow talk about sweeping statements; Btw do i write the Chief of staff or Michael D Higgins to tell him i never got my commissioning papers ? Im a "young" Unit Rep in the RDFRA and let me say this, its a far different organization than it was!

    Sure you could say that the Gov gets SFA back from the DF as a whole ? You cannot compare the Garda Reserve to the DF, AGS Provide front line services which are visible to the public; Half the fellas in the RDF are running this country in their civi lifes! If after 20 years you could not see what value the FCA/RDF provide i would be very shocked; You sit there and talk with some of the old PDF skins and ask them about the RDF you might get a very different story.

    I know what the Army Reserve does, most of the people in the DF know what the reserve does and in the coming years the reserve may have to do alot more with alot less.

    Im a proud member of the reserve and i cannot believe someone is telling me the countless hours i put in is not value for money, i pay around 6k in tax each year and i have to buy my own Private Health insurance, same for my pension; Are you telling me that i haven't earned the 400 a year i get off the DF of my own money?
    how are half of the RDF members running the country, and we all, who work pay tax and VHI or whatever,
    so how are you different?

    the Garda Reserve is part time as is the RDF! thats the comparision!

    what i seen is come back after Camp in Sept, do some training till Christmas, prepare for the ARPs and the ranges around Jan/Feb and then, its preparing for Camp and maybe a few weekends thrown in! f wheres the VFM, please

  30. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greengiant View Post
    ....but when it comes to your AGM, Shatter will be down there in the Curragh or wherever and praising ya, and saying he believes in the concept, but not backing ya!
    Would doubt that - a full Minister of Defence has not attended the RDFRA AGM in God knows how long, the Minister of State at DoD usually gets handed the responsibility
    Ditto for RDF Officer commissioning ceremonies
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

  31. #25
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    Actually the Minister has been at the last two (Killeen & Shatter), unusual I know but he showed up.

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