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Thread: Mali.

  1. #26
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    Depends on where troops are located in country (if they go), but you can probably safely assume that any unit sent would very closely resemble the Chad deployment. Might be more of a logs tail though.

    There really aren't enough helis to go, but probably even more importantly, the AC would need to have been training for deployment for a very long time before considering a mission like this (and I'm sure there would be infrastructural issues too around kit). Goes back to what the Minister said recently - its all about capacity building. The DF needs to be out there training with our allies in Europe, for serious deployments with all the gear.

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  3. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aidan View Post
    Depends on where troops are located in country (if they go), but you can probably safely assume that any unit sent would very closely resemble the Chad deployment. Might be more of a logs tail though.

    There really aren't enough helis to go, but probably even more importantly, the AC would need to have been training for deployment for a very long time before considering a mission like this (and I'm sure there would be infrastructural issues too around kit). Goes back to what the Minister said recently - its all about capacity building. The DF needs to be out there training with our allies in Europe, for serious deployments with all the gear.
    and the JW thread rears its head again...

    French SOF just did a 2,000km patrol over 10 days or so into northern Mali, supported by a pair of Puma's and a Tiger - i saw the piccies on Arrse - apparently they didn't meet anyone, but they found a, err... 'bucket' load of weapons.

    if you guys do end up going on a 'peacekeeping' job in Mali, i hope - as Aidan says - that you take all the gear, because i rather doubt you want to get into a fight on an AO that big without your own Artillery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post

    French SOF just did a 2,000km patrol over 10 days or so into northern Mali, supported by a pair of Puma's and a Tiger - i saw the piccies on Arrse - apparently they didn't meet anyone, but they found a, err... 'bucket' load of weapons.
    Photo slideshow with OTT music; http://youtu.be/nUZifj1Fq6c . It's better than the DFs usual third world resolution videos with the same poxy music!

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  7. #30
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    Methinks this will be an ARW job - send maybe 40-50, working beside French/Brits/whoever is able to provide the air support, a bit like the East Timor op.

    Can't see the Government ponying up for a larger deployment.

  8. #31
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    Please please please please please let us provide a regional force reserve with a Mech BG, please please please please please please please.
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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  10. #32
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Just hire reputable hauliage companies to bring vehicles overland this time. Not Ahmed & co with his 30 year old flatbed and a bit of hemp twine and some balsa wood wheel chocks.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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  12. #33
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    Just hire reputable hauliage companies to bring vehicles overland this time. Not Ahmed & co with his 30 year old flatbed and a bit of hemp twine and some balsa wood wheel chocks.
    Thing is that african shitholes dont generally have reputable haulage companies, Ahmeds Nolan transport offshoot set up might be the best you can do!

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  14. #34
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    Oh please, please, please let this happen.

    PLEASE.

  15. #35
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    On another note Minister Shatter is really starting to impress with his views on Defence and the DF's future roles.

    I've never seen someone who holds the Defence portfolio be so interested in Defence.

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  17. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Come-quickly View Post
    Please please please please please let us provide a regional force reserve with a Mech BG, please please please please please please please.
    actually, having read the yahoo article that Dev just posted up the thread, i'm not absolutely sure i'd want to be in on the UN force - firstly it talks about the conditions for deployment being that, effectively, peace has broken out with the various naughty groups having been fcuked off, and that - to my reading at least - elections have already been held. it also makes clear that if theres a problem, it'll be the French force, not the UN force, that does the fisticuffs.

    so a pecekeeping op in a place thats at peace, and at peace to the degree that elections have already been held? Cork sounds sportier than that... then the idea that the UN force is so 'unforceful' that if there's a problem it can't/won't generate its own outgoing and will get the French to do the business.

    i'm a big fan of the French - and the Germans after spending time with them - but i'm not a fan of UN-hatted jobs, and this one sounds like they're writing the chaos/ineffectiveness in from the start, rather than the normal practice of developing it in country. press for an EU force to support the French and mesh into their logs train and fire support set-up - ideally with the French in it - and leave the UN to hand out condoms to rape victims, or whatever the hell they do...

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  19. #37
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    To be honest, the EU has been making the running on this (and is looking for a situation where it can be seen to be a player in the security world). I'd be very surprised if the UN, post resolution, didn't hand it over to a 'regional security' actor, and let the EU do the leg work. Like Chad at the start, rather than at the end, in other words.

    If New York is actively involved in running the operation, I'd pass too, to be honest.

  20. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fridge Magnet View Post
    On another note Minister Shatter is really starting to impress with his views on Defence and the DF's future roles.

    I've never seen someone who holds the Defence portfolio be so interested in Defence.
    And the funny thing is, he gives it second place compared to his Justice Portfolio.
    It isn't him. It's government. He is merely the mouthpiece. Enda has a firm interest in defence. Even the Committee have visited the Naval Base and the Glen.

    Quite funny photos on facepalm of committee members wearing Body Armour taken in the glen last week. Clearly one size does not fit all.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  21. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    And the funny thing is, he gives it second place compared to his Justice Portfolio.
    It isn't him. It's government. He is merely the mouthpiece. Enda has a firm interest in defence. Even the Committee have visited the Naval Base and the Glen.

    Quite funny photos on facepalm of committee members wearing Body Armour taken in the glen last week. Clearly one size does not fit all.
    I saw them photos alright! Bit of a laugh.

    A EUFOR mission would also be the best in my eyes. Probably more respect from the locals too given the UN's chequered history in Africa.
    I knew a simple soldier boy.....
    Who grinned at life in empty joy,
    Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
    And whistled early with the lark.

    In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
    With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
    He put a bullet through his brain.
    And no one spoke of him again.

    You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
    Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
    Sneak home and pray you'll never know
    The hell where youth and laughter go.

  22. #40
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    Alan is an old man in a hurry, he's spent years in opposition and on the back benches, this is his once change perhaps to achieve something in politics.

    Given his background, justice is his main intrest, but even still he's light years ahead of the "Minister of Defence for limerick" type that has held the post before

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  24. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    actually, having read the yahoo article that Dev just posted up the thread, i'm not absolutely sure i'd want to be in on the UN force - firstly it talks about the conditions for deployment being that, effectively, peace has broken out with the various naughty groups having been fcuked off, and that - to my reading at least - elections have already been held. it also makes clear that if theres a problem, it'll be the French force, not the UN force, that does the fisticuffs.

    so a pecekeeping op in a place thats at peace, and at peace to the degree that elections have already been held? Cork sounds sportier than that... then the idea that the UN force is so 'unforceful' that if there's a problem it can't/won't generate its own outgoing and will get the French to do the business.

    i'm a big fan of the French - and the Germans after spending time with them - but i'm not a fan of UN-hatted jobs, and this one sounds like they're writing the chaos/ineffectiveness in from the start, rather than the normal practice of developing it in country. press for an EU force to support the French and mesh into their logs train and fire support set-up - ideally with the French in it - and leave the UN to hand out condoms to rape victims, or whatever the hell they do...
    most people on here will know of my dislike to most things about the UN, but what you have said that is pretty much why i have always hated any UN mission and been lucky enough to have avoided any official UN duties throughout my career.

    it's time the ONH got the chance to serve operationally without them.
    Last edited by RoyalGreenJacket; 23rd April 2013 at 20:47.
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  25. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
    most people on here will know of my dislike to most things about the UN, but what you have said that is pretty much why i have always hated any UN mission and been lucky enough to have avoided any official UN duties throughout my career.

    it's time the ONH got the chance to serve operationally without them.
    Did a dissertation on the UN in Africa...by my parameters the UN didn't come out in a good light (I thought it was a fairly unbiased write up too).

    And thanks for the ONH
    I knew a simple soldier boy.....
    Who grinned at life in empty joy,
    Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
    And whistled early with the lark.

    In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
    With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
    He put a bullet through his brain.
    And no one spoke of him again.

    You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
    Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
    Sneak home and pray you'll never know
    The hell where youth and laughter go.

  26. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fridge Magnet View Post
    On another note Minister Shatter is really starting to impress with his views on Defence and the DF's future roles.

    I've never seen someone who holds the Defence portfolio be so interested in Defence.
    Are you being sarcastic?

  27. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    Are you being sarcastic?
    Why would I be joking?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    And the funny thing is, he gives it second place compared to his Justice Portfolio.
    It isn't him. It's government. He is merely the mouthpiece. Enda has a firm interest in defence. Even the Committee have visited the Naval Base and the Glen.

    Quite funny photos on facepalm of committee members wearing Body Armour taken in the glen last week. Clearly one size does not fit all.
    Whoever it is, it's quite encouraging!

  29. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    and the JW thread rears its head again...

    French SOF just did a 2,000km patrol over 10 days or so into northern Mali, supported by a pair of Puma's and a Tiger - i saw the piccies on Arrse - apparently they didn't meet anyone, but they found a, err... 'bucket' load of weapons.
    Show off's.....

  30. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    Are you being sarcastic?
    Shatter may not be perfect - and yes, after reading all the stuff on hear about the re-orgs and VFM studies etc.. that 'not perfect' is something of a uphamism - but the speech he gave at Dublin Castle about EU defence and foreign policy is, i supect, not a speech than any other Irish Defence minster would ever have made.

    he may have buggered you about, but it appears that he and Enda have a vision of ONH and the kind of tasks they want it to carry out that are what most on here have been crying out for for years. if he gets ditched or moves on because of opposition within ONH to his 'and this is how we're going to do it' plan, you're unlikely to get another minister with the same ambition.

  31. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
    most people on here will know of my dislike to most things about the UN, but what you have said that is pretty much why i have always hated any UN mission and been lucky enough to have avoided any official UN duties throughout my career....
    lucky fcuker - i've done two. to know the UN is to hate it...

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  33. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    actually, having read the yahoo article that Dev just posted up the thread, i'm not absolutely sure i'd want to be in on the UN force - firstly it talks about the conditions for deployment being that, effectively, peace has broken out with the various naughty groups having been fcuked off, and that - to my reading at least - elections have already been held. it also makes clear that if theres a problem, it'll be the French force, not the UN force, that does the fisticuffs.

    so a pecekeeping op in a place thats at peace, and at peace to the degree that elections have already been held? Cork sounds sportier than that... then the idea that the UN force is so 'unforceful' that if there's a problem it can't/won't generate its own outgoing and will get the French to do the business.

    i'm a big fan of the French - and the Germans after spending time with them - but i'm not a fan of UN-hatted jobs, and this one sounds like they're writing the chaos/ineffectiveness in from the start, rather than the normal practice of developing it in country. press for an EU force to support the French and mesh into their logs train and fire support set-up - ideally with the French in it - and leave the UN to hand out condoms to rape victims, or whatever the hell they do...
    I think you will find most PKOs involve a country where peace has broken out (the clue is in the name).

    IMHO if two different forces are on the ground like that it can be counter productive.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aidan View Post
    To be honest, the EU has been making the running on this (and is looking for a situation where it can be seen to be a player in the security world). I'd be very surprised if the UN, post resolution, didn't hand it over to a 'regional security' actor, and let the EU do the leg work. Like Chad at the start, rather than at the end, in other words.

    If New York is actively involved in running the operation, I'd pass too, to be honest.
    Well with the current financial situation, a UN funded mission is what the DF should hope for.



    Quote Originally Posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
    most people on here will know of my dislike to most things about the UN, but what you have said that is pretty much why i have always hated any UN mission and been lucky enough to have avoided any official UN duties throughout my career.

    it's time the ONH got the chance to serve operationally without them.
    UN mandated missions:
    Korea
    Gulf Wars 1 & 2
    IFOR/SFOR
    KFOR
    ISAF

    The UK is one of the countries that has major input into the UN mandates that Irish troops serve under (and in some cases try to do the impossible due to be hand strung by the mandate).

    Yet off the top of my head the only UN mission they have made major contributions to were/are UNPROFOR (in fairness a dangerous mission which had a sizable UK contingent) and UNFICYP (where troops currently patrol on mountain bikes in places).

    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    Shatter may not be perfect - and yes, after reading all the stuff on hear about the re-orgs and VFM studies etc.. that 'not perfect' is something of a uphamism - but the speech he gave at Dublin Castle about EU defence and foreign policy is, i supect, not a speech than any other Irish Defence minster would ever have made.

    he may have buggered you about, but it appears that he and Enda have a vision of ONH and the kind of tasks they want it to carry out that are what most on here have been crying out for for years. if he gets ditched or moves on because of opposition within ONH to his 'and this is how we're going to do it' plan, you're unlikely to get another minister with the same ambition.
    Who is to say he wants the DF to contribute?

  34. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    UN mandated missions:
    Korea
    Gulf Wars 1 & 2
    IFOR/SFOR
    KFOR
    ISAF

    The UK is one of the countries that has major input into the UN mandates that Irish troops serve under (and in some cases try to do the impossible due to be hand strung by the mandate).

    Yet off the top of my head the only UN mission they have made major contributions to were/are UNPROFOR (in fairness a dangerous mission which had a sizable UK contingent) and UNFICYP (where troops currently patrol on mountain bikes in places).
    i completed 4 of the missions you list above and spent 6 years in Cyprus - thankfully none of those involved my hands tied behind my back wearing the 'Blue Beret' of the UN.

    there is a big difference to a UN mandated mission (most involves war fighting) where you get to wear your own beret and a UN mission (most involves peace keeping) where you wear that of the UN.

    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    i hope you lot have got that desert/arid DPM kit sorted out...


    i was hoping the same ropebag - the 'desert cap' and desert boots with temperate camo looks chippy.
    Last edited by RoyalGreenJacket; 23rd April 2013 at 22:40.
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