Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Fouga Magisters

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Hi there
    Any rumours of actual talks or such about Alphas probably came about from their regular visits. It was common to see individuals or pairs in at least two-three times a year, outside of airshows. We had French, German and Belgian Alphas in and I spoke to one French pilot who was of the opinion that we were getting them, ie, how did an average French line pilot know this? Obviously, nothing came of it but there could be a stack of discussion papers in DoD archives. I recall the S211 being rejected because it only numbered a few airframes, all told, only a handful of air arms used them and they were regarded as not much of an advance on the Fougas. There were and probably continue to be hundreds of attempted/proposed sales to the DF every year and most come to nothing in the end, but visiting aircraft on sales jaunts in the Don were quite common. I remember the Valmet Vinka, the Casa 212, the Cessna Caravan specifically on sales visits.
    Dev, the fuel consumption per annum of Alphas would have been based on an annual estimated flying hours limit, of say, 200 per a/c per year. Now that rises and falls as circumstances change per month and even per week.........the pity is that they weren't taken up as they would have given the Don a genuinely potent, agile, fast and tough aircraft.

    regards
    GttC

    Comment


    • Hi GTTC,

      It has to considered that the vast majority of demo's in Bal were unsolicited, and generally part of a demo tour that manufactures mount regularly. The only one that I know of that was driven from the DF albeit the Army was the C-27J. The rest were just jollies for the boys. Without a stated requirement and some kind of approach to industry/tender process everything else was manufacturer driven.
      I remember the S-211 tour very well and I know the guys in FTS were very impressed, as it was not that much of a step up from the Fouga and had very good operating costs, however there was no competition and therefore It was not "rejected" there was no process of evaluation, a few guys flew a bunch of guys went to the presentation from the marketing people.. and that was it.
      I think its very important not to read to much into these visits, and the opinion of some random french pilot really doesn't prove anything unfortunatly.
      Its a terrible pity the AC didn't have the funding etc over the years to move forward. In reality there was never the perceived role/need or funding for anything even approaching the capability of the Alpha Jet.

      Regards

      Comment


      • The Marchetti demonstrator visited twice, on the first occasion the AE section (as it was then) did not even come out to look at it. However there was a change of mind and it returned some time later for a fuller demo. Sorry I do not have dates to hand as I am away from my files.
        Tony K

        Comment


        • Can anyone explain the process by which the Fouga Magister was selected? Obviously the Vampires were in need of replacement, but was there a tendering process - were other options trialed at the time?

          Or were they just offered at the right time, for the right price?

          There's a mention of Folland Gnats in the Dáil, 1972:

          Comment


          • There was no tendering process back then like we have now. It was basically the case of the Air Corps going out and finding the best aircraft that fits their needs, budget, maintenance capabilities etc that's on offer, they evaluate and test the aircraft.
            The evaluation process took place in January 1974. Two aircraft were evaluated, the Fouga and the Aermacchi MB-326.

            Comment


            • Well, I know the Cessna Caravan was there for three days as Pierce Cahill brought it in. It even went around with our camera pods on it, as it had it's own pylons on and Johnny Moore told us that it had been brought in at the request of the Don and they went over it with a magnifying glass. From what I heard, it was pushed from on high within the Don and was shot down at Govt level.....when the Marchettis were being considered, the original project to replace the Chipmunks had begun to suffer "mission creep" and the little monster grew and grew until the only real contender was the Marchetti. A certain very senior Eng Officer refused to tolerate this mission creep and wrote a letter to his superiors (which was quite brave of him, in such a small force) criticizing this aspect of the replacement process. Ultimately, he was shouted down but he was proved right on that and subsequent occasions. It improved our opinion of him, no end.......the 326 was way better than a Fouga. Pity they didn't get it.

              regards
              GttC

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tony Kearns View Post
                EH Hello, have we established and in agreement that THEY were not Super Magisters?
                Okay, let's try to move this to a conclusion!

                From what I can gather the term Super Magister was never an official term used by manufacturers. The last 141 magisters built ( as well as numbers 35 and 405, presumably owned by manufacturers) had the Marbore VI engine. While I have found a quote "the CM170-2 Super Magister was a designation of an up-rated version", I do not think that the term CM 170-2 was also ever an official designation.

                I believe if you looked at the log books of all magisters they would be designated CM170. As it is quite reasonable to mark an enhanced-power engine with a different designation, in the absence of any official designation by the manufacturers, terms such as Super Magister and CM170-2 were variously adopted. So the Irish magisters WERE Super Magisters, as well as CM170 magisters. As were the other 135 magisters with the Marbore VI engine. It is that, and that alone, which differentiated them from the previous magisters produced in terms of how to answer the question.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                  the 326 was way better than a Fouga. Pity they didn't get it.
                  It probably came down to cost. The Aermacchis on offer where new aircraft and the Fougas being upgraded and refurbished second hand.

                  Comment


                  • When you think of what the Fougas cost in the end, it would have been worth it to buy new MB 326s. A shortsighted policy driven by cost, not utility. It was ever thus.

                    regards
                    GttC

                    Comment


                    • It was also a retrograde step in terms of capability that was never advanced since.


                      Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                      Comment


                      • Not PC9s but

                        The Paris Air Show is a prime spot in the Aviation world to show the weird and wonderful, or at least the exotic.  One of the not-so-exotic exhibitors, but still interesting, is the Iomax Archangel…

                        Comment


                        • You'd wonder at the level of armour protection on this kind of aircraft. I'm assuming there's Kevlar around the engine, cockpit and fuel system, as well as some kind of IR jammer. It would have to be able to survive hits from at least 12.7mm, as the Dshk and it's cousins are plentiful. I'm also assuming that if it has to force-land, the pilot has to jump or ride it down. Also, it's as slow as glacial drift so couldn't run away if it had to.
                          regards
                          GttC

                          Comment


                          • So, what I have so far is that the PC9 isnt a replacement for the SW260WE or the CM170(Other designations TBC). It is never going over seas, will never support the Irish Army but is lauded as the best thing since sliced bread for Defence Forces by the IAC???
                            Simple question? In the recent over the horizon shoot by the NS why was a PC-9 not calling the hits rather than a AW139? After all isnt that one of the supposed tasks of a COIN aircraft such as the PC-9? Was 1 serviceable out of 7 too much to ask? Wouldnt have been problem with the Fouga. Then again there were more then 7 dedicated technicians to the entire SF260 and CM170 fleet.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tadpole View Post
                              So, what I have so far is that the PC9 isnt a replacement for the SW260WE or the CM170(Other designations TBC). It is never going over seas, will never support the Irish Army but is lauded as the best thing since sliced bread for Defence Forces by the IAC???
                              Simple question? In the recent over the horizon shoot by the NS why was a PC-9 not calling the hits rather than a AW139? After all isnt that one of the supposed tasks of a COIN aircraft such as the PC-9? Was 1 serviceable out of 7 too much to ask? Wouldnt have been problem with the Fouga. Then again there were more then 7 dedicated technicians to the entire SF260 and CM170 fleet.
                              So how many Naval Fire Support Liaison Officers can a PC-9 carry? Answer none.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Tadpole View Post
                                So, what I have so far is that the PC9 isnt a replacement for the SW260WE or the CM170(Other designations TBC). It is never going over seas, will never support the Irish Army but is lauded as the best thing since sliced bread for Defence Forces by the IAC???
                                Simple question? In the recent over the horizon shoot by the NS why was a PC-9 not calling the hits rather than a AW139? After all isnt that one of the supposed tasks of a COIN aircraft such as the PC-9? Was 1 serviceable out of 7 too much to ask? Wouldnt have been problem with the Fouga. Then again there were more then 7 dedicated technicians to the entire SF260 and CM170 fleet.
                                It did replace both the Marchettis and Fougas.

                                Has the AC roled it for COIN?

                                Government policy is not to deploy AC aircraft overseas.


                                Originally posted by Rhodes View Post
                                So how many Naval Fire Support Liaison Officers can a PC-9 carry? Answer none.
                                It could possibly carry 1 but not 2 and an expert from the Arty Sch.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X