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  1. #51
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    You're not looking at the realities of the DF doing away with married quarters and relying on us buying our own homes, all in the name of saving money. Well now after closing several Barracks the situation arises where people have set down roots where they were stationed and moving the family away from jobs and schools etc is not feasible, especially in the face of negative equity that applies to anyone has purchased a home in the last 8-10 years.

    So to yourself and those who say, why don't you move, I say why don't you think before you belittle the financial suffering and stressed family situation of many serving soldiers. I'm lucky, i only have 100 Km commute daily up from 2 Km, but it does mean that if i compare my wages, after travel costs, to what i'd get in my pension I'm working for less than €50 a week. As soon as my OH finishes college in Athlone which she started when I was moved, I'm out the gate
    And the realities of the rest of the country being, we have to follow the work, accept the cuts and not live in the world of pretentious entitlement because we work in the private / public sector.

    to be crass , couldn't take a joke shouldn't have joined up!

    From a private sector view, what do you do that contributes to the improvement of the economy and the well being of the state in general.

    There are certain thankless tasks that us state employees provide as a necessity and we all come under public scrutiny in justifying our existence, unfortunately often the DF come in at the bottom of the pecking order.

    To highlight , as declared by PDFORRA. 5 cases, from 8,500 persons serving, clutching at straws to mind.
    In fact the tactics of the organisation are so removed from the opinion of the members on issues such as this people are opting out in embarrassment.
    Last edited by hptmurphy; 3rd October 2014 at 16:03. Reason: spelling
    Time for another break I think......

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  3. #52
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craghopper View Post
    You try and fulfill your contract when you have in some cases 10-20 individuals applying for one appointment overseas..
    When overseas was cut back wasn't doing extra courses an option?

    Is it 1 tour ever 3 years or 3 tours in 12 years (or something like that)?

    Quote Originally Posted by REX View Post
    You're not looking at the realities of the DF doing away with married quarters and relying on us buying our own homes, all in the name of saving money. Well now after closing several Barracks the situation arises where people have set down roots where they were stationed and moving the family away from jobs and schools etc is not feasible, especially in the face of negative equity that applies to anyone has purchased a home in the last 8-10 years.

    So to yourself and those who say, why don't you move, I say why don't you think before you belittle the financial suffering and stressed family situation of many serving soldiers. I'm lucky, i only have 100 Km commute daily up from 2 Km, but it does mean that if i compare my wages, after travel costs, to what i'd get in my pension I'm working for less than €50 a week. As soon as my OH finishes college in Athlone which she started when I was moved, I'm out the gate!
    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    And the realities of the rest of the country being, we have to follow the work, accept the cuts and not live in the world of pretentious entitlement because we work in the private / public sector.

    to be crass , couldn't take a joke shouldn't have joined up!

    From a private sector view, what do you do that contributes to the improvement of the economy and the well being of the state in general.

    there area certain thankless tasks atht us stse employees provide as a necessity and we all come under public scuutiny in justifying our existence, unfortunately often the DF come in at the bottom of the pecking order.

    To highlight , as declared by PDFORRA. 5 cases, from 8,500 persons serving, clutching at straws to mind.
    In fact the tactics of the organistation are so removed from the opinion of the members on issues such as this people are opting out in embarrassment.
    In fairness to the DF, they are the only public/civil servants that were cut in the good times. All the barracks closures, should have been done in the good times as well.

    Also, there are very few others that can be complusaryily moved.

    The low pay etc could actually be a knock job effect of privates being allowed to serve up to 21 (but the pay isn't high enough!!!)

  4. #53
    Lt General Barry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by REX View Post
    So to yourself and those who say, why don't you move, I say why don't you think before you belittle the financial suffering and stressed family situation of many serving soldiers. I'm lucky, i only have 100 Km commute daily up from 2 Km, but it does mean that if i compare my wages, after travel costs, to what i'd get in my pension I'm working for less than €50 a week. As soon as my OH finishes college in Athlone which she started when I was moved, I'm out the gate!
    I think the point that Dev is trying (poorly) to make is that this type of suffering isn't restricted only to members of the Defence Forces. A lot of people face relocation in their job. I know a couple of people whose civilian employment involves long periods (often with no firm end date given, and lasting up to 2 years) abroad at extremely short notice, with no heed paid to family circumstances or whether or not they want to go. Similarly, many people have had to emigrate just to find a job of any kind - these people would bite your hand off if you offered them a guaranteed job in Ireland with a 100km a day commute.

    I'm not saying that any of this is right, or that the circumstances faced by serving soldiers shouldn't be brought to public attention - but it's not just the DF that is treated like this, and acting like it is only undermines your point.

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  6. #54
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Also, there are very few others that can be complusaryily moved.
    Anyone in the HSE can be redeployed up to 50km from their current place of work, not their home address, so if you already commute this can be added to it with no reimbursement.
    Time for another break I think......

  7. #55
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I think the point that Dev is trying (poorly) to make is that this type of suffering isn't restricted only to members of the Defence Forces. A lot of people face relocation in their job. I know a couple of people whose civilian employment involves long periods (often with no firm end date given, and lasting up to 2 years) abroad at extremely short notice, with no heed paid to family circumstances or whether or not they want to go. Similarly, many people have had to emigrate just to find a job of any kind - these people would bite your hand off if you offered them a guaranteed job in Ireland with a 100km a day commute.

    I'm not saying that any of this is right, or that the circumstances faced by serving soldiers shouldn't be brought to public attention - but it's not just the DF that is treated like this, and acting like it is only undermines your point.
    Exactly but I would raise the point that there are only limited areas in the public service where their job can be moved compulsory. I could be 100% wrong on that.

  8. #56
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    And after I throat punch whoever says that to me ill tell him, im not lucky, i signed the line and took the same oath and im f**king entitled and require it.

    but i still wouldnt get it!
    Entitled to it........entitled to Fúckall, the DF will give you what they think you need and then only after they have looked after everyone else they think might need it ahead of you.

    The only entitlement you have is a space in the ranks!
    Time for another break I think......

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  10. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    We got an email this week reminding us that winter dress regs were now in force.

    id like to remind whoever took the effort to do this, that my shirt was not actually issued to me, i acquired it when my other two ripped during the past ten years and that each time ive put a clothing form in for fair wear and tear, its only made it as far as the fat useless roly poly waste of life, c**t of an RDF BQ back in HQ and he has most likely wiped his giant fat Kim Kardashian, should be in an old peoples home, arse with it before dunking another rich tea in his DF mug.

    I also noticed him wearing Haix on the range this year, before he fired one shot on the new table and promptly rolled off the firing point. he then used his steyr (actually probably some other poor c**nts steyr) as a crutch to get up, before ****ing his helmet (that he couldnt get the chin straps to close because he has four chins) at the truck.

    I wouldnt mind but it took twenty minutes and 3 sgts to dress the enormous ****atard and get his fat head through the neck of his armour to begin with.

    Shows the priorities of those in power really.
    You don't like him then??

  11. #58
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    We got an email this week reminding us that winter dress regs were now in force.

    id like to remind whoever took the effort to do this, that my shirt was not actually issued to me, i acquired it when my other two ripped during the past ten years and that each time ive put a clothing form in for fair wear and tear, its only made it as far as the fat useless roly poly waste of life, c**t of an RDF BQ back in HQ and he has most likely wiped his giant fat Kim Kardashian, should be in an old peoples home, arse with it before dunking another rich tea in his DF mug.

    I also noticed him wearing Haix on the range this year, before he fired one shot on the new table and promptly rolled off the firing point. he then used his steyr (actually probably some other poor c**nts steyr) as a crutch to get up, before ****ing his helmet (that he couldnt get the chin straps to close because he has four chins) at the truck.

    I wouldnt mind but it took twenty minutes and 3 sgts to dress the enormous ****atard and get his fat head through the neck of his armour to begin with.

    Shows the priorities of those in power really.
    Turn up in a ripped shirt

  12. #59
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    well then, maybe id consider this persons long prestigious career and personal sacrifice in the RDF/FCA and would be far far more forgiving and they would have earned my respect instead of my online abuse and ire
    But he is a friend of mine and he trained me many a year and we've hiked over many bastard hard hills together.

    So : why do you think he has input into kit that the - for argument's sake - the Single Force Bn's BQ is responsible for seeing his Bn's soldiers are sent out and equipped with ? If I did that here I'd be told by a wide variety of folks to get fked.

    Anyway this is all OFFTOPIC so please keep RDF stuff to our own whinging thread. There are undoubtedly families in very hard shrift if they are on FIS and they have my sympathy.


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    An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

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  14. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    There are undoubtedly families in very hard shrift if they are on FIS and they have my sympathy.
    I totally agree.

    But the DF are not the only ones effected.

    More than one of my friends are in a position where they have had to see work where commuting is not an option.
    With children in secondary school, partner working and everyone having roots upping sticks is not an option.
    6 of the crew on my shift commute 100km or more each day
    One of my friends lives in Cork Monday to Friday while his wife is in Maynooth. There is no income support, assistance with mortgage or rent subsidy. And sleeping in the car between shifts is not an option either.

    No one should belittle the strife of others but please remember that although the DF is a unique job the difficulties of pay, conditions and work life balance effect everyone.

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  16. #61
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    Did your crew choose the commute? Most of the lads been highlighted in the pdf did not choose to !!
    And there is a whole lot more who travel further but that was their decision due to their home places.
    And no other job would work 24hrs for approx 23euros
    As for overseas there are units even corps that will struggle to get guys on a trip.
    The facts are the goal post have changed and we have sucked it up fir nothing.

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  18. #62
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saab View Post
    I totally agree.

    But the DF are not the only ones effected.

    More than one of my friends are in a position where they have had to see work where commuting is not an option.
    With children in secondary school, partner working and everyone having roots upping sticks is not an option.
    6 of the crew on my shift commute 100km or more each day
    One of my friends lives in Cork Monday to Friday while his wife is in Maynooth. There is no income support, assistance with mortgage or rent subsidy. And sleeping in the car between shifts is not an option either.

    No one should belittle the strife of others but please remember that although the DF is a unique job the difficulties of pay, conditions and work life balance effect everyone.
    I was working with a guy who worked a 4 shift (2x12 hour days, 2x12 hour nights, 4 days off (plus overtime)) for 4 days he lived in a Dublin B&B (at an excellent rate), then went home to Waterford. He did that for 2 years.

    In fairness, it would have been relatively well paid job, single and no kids. Plus he chose to take the job. People go where the work is.

    But I suppose if people are afraid to move in case they are posted back (eg Athlone back to Dublin) or incase their new location closes (eg Kilkenny) - could there be a case for the DOD/DF deciding that they will close more barracks now in 2-3 years time (to reduce fear, get a better price and allow planning)?

    Plus look at increasing wages (reform allowances (to get rid of some and bring others into line pay).

    While looking at some way to aid people that have purchased houses and been posted very long distances (say no public transport or over 45-60 minute drive from original station (in wrong direction from home)

  19. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I think the point that Dev is trying (poorly) to make is that this type of suffering isn't restricted only to members of the Defence Forces. A lot of people face relocation in their job. I know a couple of people whose civilian employment involves long periods (often with no firm end date given, and lasting up to 2 years) abroad at extremely short notice, with no heed paid to family circumstances or whether or not they want to go. Similarly, many people have had to emigrate just to find a job of any kind - these people would bite your hand off if you offered them a guaranteed job in Ireland with a 100km a day commute.

    I'm not saying that any of this is right, or that the circumstances faced by serving soldiers shouldn't be brought to public attention - but it's not just the DF that is treated like this, and acting like it is only undermines your point.
    Last year, after a change of work position, I had to do a number of training courses. Most were at short notice. All were in HQ, a 3 hour train trip away. All were at least 3 days duration, requiring overnight stays, and the training centres were always in Dublin city centre. Yes we got refunded, but at a nightly rate, rather than the cost of the expense incurred.
    One course was held Christmas week, and I got a weeks notice. Andre Rieu was in the 02 the same week. Needless to say accommodation was scarce, but had to be got.
    You just had to get on with it. Such is life.

    Mate of mine in the private sector is commuting to London weekly. Next year there is no UK work available, but loads in the US. Commuting weekly to the US is not an option, so he has to chose between seeing his family regularly, or earning a wage to keep them.

    such is life.

    In a past job of mine in multi Drop delivery I headed to Dublin on Sunday evening, stayed at B&B, delivered in the city centre Monday morning, headed south west in the evening delivering to Kildare, clonmel and cashel en route to Limerick. Tuesday morning saw deliveries in Limerick, Ennis, Adare, Tralee, Killarney, Kenmare ,Castletownbere and Clonakilty, before returning to Limerick depot. Wednesday saw me heading to Galway, Clifden, Westport and Tuam, finishing again in limerick. Load for Kerry again, visiting Limerick city, Ennis, Adare, Tralee, Killarney, Kenmare, Glengarriff, Glandore, Clonakilty before overnighting in Cork. Deliver to cork city Friday morning, finishing up in Dungarvan, Clonmel, Cashel and dundrum Tipperary. At that stage it was up to me whether I wanted to return to Home in Limerick, Parents place in Cork or Weekend in Dublin.

    That's what you had to do to earn a wage!

    You chose the job, knowing the obligations from day one. This idea that you would join the army but live were suited you best is nonsense. If you are transferred to a 5 man outpost in Donegal, but you decide that because you are from cork you are going to commute and to hell with the DF, then you joined the wrong job.

    It gives me grey hair when I see people suggesting that different branches of the DF should have outposts here or there because that's where they are from and they want to join said branch. We still have too many locations for an army of our size. If right was right, the entire army could be located in the Curragh or ideally, if there was space, Athlone. If you want to join the army, you live in the curragh(or athlone).

    The only reason there needs to be other locations is that the security situation, or operational necessity dictates it. Unfortunately, while we still do CIT, this option is a non runner.

    Its the nature of the job. You are based where you are needed. If you want to live elsewhere.. get a job in that place.
    Last edited by na grohmiti; 3rd October 2014 at 19:20.

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  21. #64
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Anyone ever been a manager with Dunnes...I have, a transfer per year is nothing out of the ordinary, Tesco the same,

    Again you want a job , you take in on their terms and conditions..not yours.
    Time for another break I think......

  22. #65
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    It's the way of the world now. Ireland is catching up with what has been commonplace in the US and Europe for years. The DF is changing from a garrison army where literally generations of soldiers joined at their local barracks and stayed there for life, to an army with multiple overseas commitments, indifferent public opinion, tight budgets and an up-or-out mentality..It's ironic given that other armies, such as the neighbours, are getting away from shifting people every three years or so to shifting them less often. i commute an 80-mile round trip and do a 48-hour 4-4 shift, because we made a choice on housing and a decent living environment. It's what you do.

  23. #66
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    The NS and AC are not so afflicted,NS bring their hammocks/bunks with them,the Don stay put.

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  25. #67
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    The PDF like any other group have issues and gripes that are caused by there working conditions. PDFORRAs job like any representative body/unions is to bring this to the attention of the employer and negotiate a settlement. If they can not get the employer to move to solve the problem then you put it out there in the press what the injustice is . and this is were PDFORRA fail miserably. Complaining to the press that funeral parties are borrowing uniforms, set the lads up for ridicule from the usual shower of lazy parasites with the inferiority complex with anything Irish, or complaining about commuting distances when a hell of a lot of people in this day and age are criss crossing the county for the sake of having a job.

    PDFORRA need to get the services of the likes of Brendan Ogie of the ESB group of unions .who is a master at handing the media by putting out there red herring claims that have nothing to do with the (at times unreasonable/trivial/greedy demands) but get the company on the back foot in the media war. In a word, PDFORRA are a bunch of well meaning amateurs who set the lads up for ridicule at times and at times piss off the wrong people by going about thing the wrong way.

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  27. #68
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    The PDF like any other group have issues and gripes that are caused by there working conditions. PDFORRAs job like any representative body/unions is to bring this to the attention of the employer and negotiate a settlement. If they can not get the employer to move to solve the problem then you put it out there in the press what the injustice is . and this is were PDFORRA fail miserably. Complaining to the press that funeral parties are borrowing uniforms, set the lads up for ridicule from the usual shower of lazy parasites with the inferiority complex with anything Irish, or complaining about commuting distances when a hell of a lot of people in this day and age are criss crossing the county for the sake of having a job.

    PDFORRA need to get the services of the likes of Brendan Ogie of the ESB group of unions .who is a master at handing the media by putting out there red herring claims that have nothing to do with the (at times unreasonable/trivial/greedy demands) but get the company on the back foot in the media war. In a word, PDFORRA are a bunch of well meaning amateurs who set the lads up for ridicule at times and at times piss off the wrong people by going about thing the wrong way.

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  29. #69
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    The ADC speeches

    http://www.pdforra.ie/index.php?opti...ker&Itemid=240

    Have only listened to the COS's but it was interesting

  30. #70
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    What are the real issues:

    1. Privates on family Income supplementary welfare payments - This is a problem, not PR bullshit problem, but a real life problem for some soldiers, this means they are not earning enough. Don't give me that crap about about if you were in the private sector etc. If a full time state job doesn't pay a living wage then that is a problem.
    2. If a soldier has to stay in his car/barracks because he cannot afford to commute. Its the same problem.

    I really hate this shit about aren't you lucky to have a job shit. People have to emigrate, people have always emigrated from this country, people emigrated during the boom. Just because you are willing to expect shit conditions in your job, and take it because its the private sector.. well so be it. That does not mean that I can't complain about my condition and try and improve my working conditions. If you are not willing to complain and try an improve your life, but except it, so be it. But do not try and make me feel some how guilty.
    Last edited by jack08; 4th October 2014 at 10:56.

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  32. #71
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    Just to put a bit of perspective on the thread for those of us who are not in the know, can somebody post what are the payscales / average takehome after stoppages? Cheers.
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
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  33. #72
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack08 View Post
    What are the real issues:

    1. Privates on family Income supplementary welfare payments - This is a problem, not PR bullshit problem, but a real life problem for some soldiers, this means they are not earning enough. Don't give me that crap about about if you were in the private sector etc. If a full time state job doesn't pay a living wage then that is a problem.
    2. If a soldier has to stay in his car/barracks because he cannot afford to commute. Its the same problem.

    I really hate this shit about aren't you lucky to have a job shit. People have to emigrate, people have always emigrated from this country, people emigrated during the boom. Just because you are willing to expect shit conditions in your job, and take it because its the private sector.. well so be it. That does not mean that I can't complain about my condition and try and improve my working conditions. If you are not willing to complain and try an improve your life, but except it, so be it. But do not try and make me feel some how guilty.
    Absolutely!
    I think though the point we're trying to make is that it isn't an issue that is confined to the DF or even the public sector.

    But the DF, DOD & Government has to lead by example (by ensuring that pay and conditions prevent these types of issues)

  34. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack08 View Post
    What are the real issues:

    1. Privates on family Income supplementary welfare payments - This is a problem, not PR bullshit problem, but a real life problem for some soldiers, this means they are not earning enough. Don't give me that crap about about if you were in the private sector etc. If a full time state job doesn't pay a living wage then that is a problem.
    2. If a soldier has to stay in his car/barracks because he cannot afford to commute. Its the same problem.

    I really hate this shit about aren't you lucky to have a job shit. People have to emigrate, people have always emigrated from this country, people emigrated during the boom. Just because you are willing to expect shit conditions in your job, and take it because its the private sector.. well so be it. That does not mean that I can't complain about my condition and try and improve my working conditions. If you are not willing to complain and try an improve your life, but except it, so be it. But do not try and make me feel some how guilty.

    I currently work in the Public Sector. If I was a new entrant with a family, I too would be entitled to FIS.
    Its not just the DF.

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  36. #74
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    If a full time state job doesn't pay a living wage then that is a problem.
    1300 out of 8,500, any further break down in relation to rank, location etc.?

    this means they are not earning enough
    No ,it means they can't live on what they are being paid, there is a difference.

    That does not mean that I can't complain about my condition and try and improve my working conditions.
    Unfortunately if you are the PDF there is nothing you, your representitive association is tolerated, but has no 'teeth' so to speak.
    Time for another break I think......

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  38. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
    Just to put a bit of perspective on the thread for those of us who are not in the know, can somebody post what are the payscales / average takehome after stoppages? Cheers.
    A new entry 3* Private will take home about €285 per week. Privates who joined before 2011 will take home around €430, some will be on Tec Pay or other allowances that could take their pay over €500. Cpl's €440-€500, Sgt's €460-550.
    An Apprentice will only take home about €245 per week, in comparison Jobseeker's Allowance is €188.
    The minimum to be on FIS is income under €506.

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