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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    0-5: Initial contract
    5-9: Re-engagement
    9-12: Re-engagement
    12-21: Extension of service
    21+: Continuance in service in 2 year blocks up to retirement age.

    Those are the periods of time listed on our own A10 for manning control points, and the criteria associated at each point to "re-up". YES.Reserve service is included in our T&C's but we are being really pedantic if we are including that in our idea of how much time we serve.If a bloke does 5 years he will not turn around and say he did 12.

    As for Morale.Two words.

    It's Shit.

    No amount of "Town Halls" or "Climate Surveys" will change that if the words are falling on deaf ears.
    Actions speak louder than words.If a few senior Officers threatened to Resign(RIP Lt Gen Stapleton) I wonder would that grab the Minister's(Sorry. I mean Junior Minister as we don't seem to rate a full one) attention? Recruitment is a joke at this juncture. No point filling a bucket when there is a hole in the bottom.
    The person who must step up to the plate here (or take full responsibility) is the CoS. If pushed the "minister" will say he didn't know there was a problem as the CoS didn't tell him, and if he did etc..
    As happened some time ago on a prime time piece, where the "minister" threw the CoS under the bus.
    So it's now or never.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  3. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    The person who must step up to the plate here (or take full responsibility) is the CoS. If pushed the "minister" will say he didn't know there was a problem as the CoS didn't tell him, and if he did etc..
    As happened some time ago on a prime time piece, where the "minister" threw the CoS under the bus.
    So it's now or never.
    Since the COS realised that the DF was as high as he was going and that there was nothing to be gained by being a whipping boy he has been much better in not just my view but many of my peers as well

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  5. #28
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasia View Post
    5-9 is Extension of Service
    9-12 is Extension of Service
    12-21 is Re-engage to complete 21 years.

    It is not being pedantic. Every person that enlists for general service does so for 12 years made up as I previously mentioned. Not 5 years!

    People that enlist for purposes other tban general service have the same period of engagement but made up differently 0-4, 4-9 and 9-12 is used for TTS
    I had a feeling my terminology was off Vis a vis re-engage vs extension.My bad.

    BUT.

    Yes. It IS being pedantic.

    Ask any soldier in any unit what their initial contract is and they will say 5 years. No one counts the 7 FLR.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  7. #29
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasia View Post
    Since the COS realised that the DF was as high as he was going and that there was nothing to be gained by being a whipping boy he has been much better in not just my view but many of my peers as well
    I think you have just summed up the major problem with the Officer Corps(and SNCO's). Too worried about their careers and moving up instead of looking after their troops.
    Other Armies laugh at us when they hear we have representative associations as they retort "That's what our Officers are for".

    The troops are not stupid.They can tell who the good Leaders are as they put themselves last.

    It has never ceased to amaze me how much an officer can accomplish once they stop worrying about the next promotion.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  9. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    I had a feeling my terminology was off Vis a vis re-engage vs extension.My bad.

    BUT.

    Yes. It IS being pedantic.

    Ask any soldier in any unit what their initial contract is and they will say 5 years. No one counts the 7 FLR.
    It will be counted if they try and leave.

  10. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    I think you have just summed up the major problem with the Officer Corps(and SNCO's). Too worried about their careers and moving up instead of looking after their troops.
    Other Armies laugh at us when they hear we have representative associations as they retort "That's what our Officers are for".

    The troops are not stupid.They can tell who the good Leaders are as they put themselves last.

    It has never ceased to amaze me how much an officer can accomplish once they stop worrying about the next promotion.
    There are militaries with much worse unionisation than ours. The Finns down tools when they reach their weekly work hours regardless of what is going on. They will get up and walk out of a meeting and say "my hours are done"

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  12. #32
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasia View Post
    There are militaries with much worse unionisation than ours. The Finns down tools when they reach their weekly work hours regardless of what is going on. They will get up and walk out of a meeting and say "my hours are done"
    Yeah but at the end of the day we are professionals and they have a conscript mentality.
    It's going to be fun for us trying to implement the WTD. We need to do it but by the same token we can't have people just walking off the job in the middle of a task.

    Anyway. We digress.Perhaps we should open a new thread on Retention and maybe try to come up with some outside of the box ideas that might help?
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  14. #33
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasia View Post
    It will be counted if they try and leave.

    Have a look at the strength of the FLR

    It isn’t enforced. As at 31/8/12 the strength of the FLR was 264 all ranks. FLR Personnel haven’t been called up for training since 1987 (there have been NS Officers who have been) and the annual cost is still € ~60k. Source for that is the RDF VFM.

    If the contractual obligations were enforced the FLR strength would be a lot higher.

    Have a look at the current FLR strength on IKON ..... bet it is even lower (which considering the amount of people leaving it should be much higher).

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  16. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Have a look at the strength of the FLR

    It isn’t enforced. As at 31/8/12 the strength of the FLR was 264 all ranks. FLR Personnel haven’t been called up for training since 1987 (there have been NS Officers who have been) and the annual cost is still € ~60k. Source for that is the RDF VFM.

    If the contractual obligations were enforced the FLR strength would be a lot higher.

    Have a look at the current FLR strength on IKON ..... bet it is even lower (which considering the amount of people leaving it should be much higher).
    Trust me when I tell you it is very much enforced. The reason is very few people use their exact 5yr & 9yr anniversaries as jumping off points. Even those that do pay their tenner in old money and go.

    You would be very surprised how many leave, try to get residency in another country and when they say that they were in the DF and they look to see their discharge papers look to buy themselves off the FLR as they cannot get approved otherwise

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  18. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    The person who must step up to the plate here (or take full responsibility) is the CoS. If pushed the "minister" will say he didn't know there was a problem as the CoS didn't tell him, and if he did etc..
    As happened some time ago on a prime time piece, where the "minister" threw the CoS under the bus.
    So it's now or never.
    Problem being falling on ones sword in an army such as ours, theres plenty will step over you to get at the position, to have any meaning others would have to refuse to fill the post.
    Time for another break I think......

  19. #36
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    Nothing like finding out if your leadership is up to task by looking around and seeing if anyone is still with you

  20. #37
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    In 31 years I dont think I've ever seen an FLR parade.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  22. #38
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    As of the 28 February, the Defence Forces strength has fallen to a new low with just 8,857 troops, including Recruits, 2 Stars, Cadets and Apprentices.

  23. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    As of the 28 February, the Defence Forces strength has fallen to a new low with just 8,857 troops, including Recruits, 2 Stars, Cadets and Apprentices.
    And TTS’s, Leave of Absence, Career Breaks, USAC and other fulltime education, career courses (including attached Instrs), overseas, forming up for overseas, leave etc

  24. #40
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    Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. I know it's bad but didn't realise how bad. Do you have any idea how many recruits, 2 stars, cadets and apprentices there are at the minute? We cannot recruit our way out of this, that's plain to see. How the Dept can continue with this approach is beyond me.

  25. #41
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    The DOD see this not as a challenge but as a benefit. They are top of the class when it comes to budget underspending

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  27. #42
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasia View Post
    The DOD see this not as a challenge but as a benefit. They are top of the class when it comes to budget underspending
    Absolutely..... that’s how the P60s were paid for

  28. #43
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    I know a large portion of the Irish population think the Army is an unnecessary luxury - I didn't know the DoD were amongst their number...
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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  30. #44
    C/S CTU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
    I know a large portion of the Irish population think the Army is an unnecessary luxury - I didn't know the DoD were amongst their number...
    It seems someone in the know as set up an interesting twitter account.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/DOD_Ireland
    Well, government doesn't stop just because the country's been destroyed! I mean, annihilation's bad enough without anarchy to make things even worse!

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  32. #45
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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  33. #46
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    50 k would be for a junior pilot??

  34. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden rivet View Post
    50 k would be for a junior pilot??
    A newly commissioned graduate pilot will be on circa €40k gross inclusive of MSA and flying pay.

    A pilot on completion of their 12 years will be closer to €70k.

    A pilot in Aer Lingus will earn in excess of €100k a year over the same period, not including additional sector payments etc.

    A pilot would have to make colonel to earn similar.
    Last edited by Chuck; 13th April 2019 at 22:56.

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  36. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    A newly commissioned graduate pilot will be on circa €40k gross inclusive of MSA and flying pay.

    A pilot on completion of their 12 years will be closer to €70k.

    A pilot in Aer Lingus will earn in excess of €100k a year over the same period, not including additional sector payments etc.

    A pilot would have to make colonel to earn similar.
    And the Aer Lingus Pilot would probably get more hours

  37. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    And the Aer Lingus Pilot would probably get more hours
    Without a shadow of a doubt. Most airline pilots, fly in the region of 600-800 hours a year. The maximum legally allowed is 900.

    AC pilots on average are somewhere in the region of 150-200. This isn't unusual for air arms. 10 hours per month would be universally accepted as the bare minimum to maintain currency.

    And also wouldn't have to deal with the endless amount of red tape, audit boards, ROWs, secretary's, meetings, duties, pet projects etc etc.

    So the options are essentially.

    Stay - Take on more responsibility, more workload for slightly better pay. A comdt to Lt Col might be 100 euro a month better off.

    Leave - Take a small hit financially for a few years. Do your primary job - flying 100% of the time with little or no distraction. Guaranteed time off and a strong union to cut out any bullshit.

    I don't think money is a deciding factor for many leaving. It is a consideration absolutely but not the single cause.

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  39. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    ...I don't think money is a deciding factor for many leaving. It is a consideration absolutely but not the single cause.
    This, absolutely this.

    People don't leave the military because the pay is crap compared to what they could earn outside, they leave because they are avalanched in crap, they are bored out of their minds, and that the pay is crap compared to what they can earn outside.

    Your aircrew aren't leaving because they could earn more at RyanAir, they are leaving because none of the flying they do is professionally challenging and they could earn more at Ryan Air.

    There's a exercise just finished in Sweden (not a NATO member), the Swedes, Norwegians, Finns, USMC and 40 CDO Gp RM spent a month up past the Arctic circle.

    How many of the people who've left in the last 5 years would have not left, or stayed in a few more years, if they had professionally challenging, exciting and interesting flying and soldiering to look forward to every year?
    Last edited by ropebag; 14th April 2019 at 12:11.

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