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  • The Luftwaffe is taking 2 A321NEO that were ordered by Lufthansa, it is planned to use them for troop transport and as medical evacuation.

    https://www.airliners.de/bundeswehr-...ufthansa/55023

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    • MATS should be funded from the DFA budget, not the defence budget exclusively. It's a State function,not a military one. The French use GLAM for their Govt transport needs and they are funded from their DFA and partly from the defence budget. They should operate in the fashion of the Garda helis, in that they have civilian maintenance and military aircrew. They should be divorced as much as possible from ordinary military functions, with the exception of aircrew and occasional hangarage. If you want to airlift our citizens from some crisis abroad, then get a transport aircraft and a group of armed men and lift them out. Apart from that, no govt should ever be embarrassed to use a Govt jet. It's what grown-up countries do; they move their statesmen and officials around as fast as they need to.

      Comment


      • Should be funded by the requesting Department

        Comment


        • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
          MATS should be funded from the DFA budget, not the defence budget exclusively. It's a State function,not a military one. The French use GLAM for their Govt transport needs and they are funded from their DFA and partly from the defence budget. They should operate in the fashion of the Garda helis, in that they have civilian maintenance and military aircrew. They should be divorced as much as possible from ordinary military functions, with the exception of aircrew and occasional hangarage. If you want to airlift our citizens from some crisis abroad, then get a transport aircraft and a group of armed men and lift them out. Apart from that, no govt should ever be embarrassed to use a Govt jet. It's what grown-up countries do; they move their statesmen and officials around as fast as they need to.
          Originally posted by DeV View Post
          Should be funded by the requesting Department
          Excellent ideas there. Would certainly give the requesting Department pause for thought if they knew they were footing the bill for using a military asset for non military purposes, from their own departmental budget
          "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

          Comment


          • What pissed people off was when MATS was used by ministers for personal or constituency business. The time when Mary Harney used the CASA to fly her to the opening of an off licence while her car was sent there by road

            Comment


            • Sending the car by road was a long established "tradition". I sent out the King Air one fine night, to Kerry and the Merc had gone hours before, from Dublin, so that the incumbent could go from Farranfore to his house, which wasn't far. Same for the return journey. When this practise was challenged in the newspapers, the excuses given were (a) security, as the drivers were Gardai (b) it would be difficult for the Civil Service to process mileage claims if the incumbents used their private cars...which immediately assumes that CS are idiots who can't count and the third,unwritten but implied excuse was (c) because we can. As Pee Flynn once said, when asked if he would take a non-Mercedes when he assumed ministerial office, "I can't go back to Mayo without a Merc. The Star's the car!". It started to get embarrassing for the Govt so they clamped down on the wanderings of official Mercs, especially when it was pointed out that it cost less to fly the King Air to Kerry (or Mayo or Sligo) than it did to pay for a Merc's fuel and two Gardai on overtime, not helped by at least one Minister being caught using the Merc for casual shopping.

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              • Government jet which flies President, Taoiseach and ministers around the world to be replaced

                The Learjet 45 'has been in continuous service since 2004 is now nearing the end of its natural life'

                The Government jet which flies the President, Taoiseach and ministers all over the world is to be axed and replaced by a new plane.

                The Learjet 45, bought for €8 million by the State in 2004, is nearing the end of its natural life, The Minister for Foreign Affairs and Defence Simon Coventry has revealed.

                He stated: “An inter Departmental Group was convened last year to examine options for the full provision of an independent, international air transport service for use by the President and Government.

                “The Learjet 45 is the primary aircraft providing this facility along with supplementary military transport and air ambulance service.

                “This aircraft which has been in continuous service since 2004 is now nearing the end of its natural life.

                “The capability of the aircraft to carry out a broader utility role such as the deployment of an Emergency Civil Assistance Team is also being examined by the Group.

                “However no decisions have yet been made in respect of the purchase of an aircraft.

                “As with all capital investment decisions costing over €10 million, the requirements of the Public Spending Code would need to be met, covering the various steps required in assessing the viability of the proposal and those associated with relevant decision making and potential subsequent public investment in any additional aircraft.

                “The Group is chaired by my Department and also comprises representatives of the Taoiseach, Public Expenditure and Reform, Transport and Foreign Affairs.

                “The Group is expected to make a recommendation to the Government later this year.”

                Mr Coveney was replying to a written Dail question from former Labour leader Brendan Howlin.

                The current Learjet 45 costs €3,780 an hour to run.

                The jet can carry seven people plus a crew of two pilots and a flight attendant.

                It has a flying range of 2,000 nautical miles and can fly for four hours and 30 minutes without refuelling.

                It can go direct to places like Moscow or Istanbul.

                The plane, when it is not being used by the Government, can be turned into an air ambulance within an hour.

                Seats can be removed to make way for a lifeport stretcher system.

                The plane has regularly brought patients especially children to the UK and Europe for life saving operations and transplants.

                President Higgins, Taoiseach Micheal Martin and Tanaiste Leo Varadkar regularly use it for Government business.

                The jet is based at Baldonnel military airport, Dublin and is run by the Air Corps.
                The Learjet 45 'has been in continuous service since 2004 is now nearing the end of its natural life'

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Rhodes View Post
                  Government jet which flies President, Taoiseach and ministers around the world to be replaced



                  The Learjet 45 'has been in continuous service since 2004 is now nearing the end of its natural life'
                  Fingers cross the replacement will have the legs for transatlantic. Returns the capability lost when the Gulfstream was sold.

                  Comment


                  • So many options that don't require an exec jet to be purchased. Replacing the Lear with something Lear like would be a huge lost opportunity. The PC12s have shown they can do the UK hospital transfers the Lear used to do. Let them do it.
                    Buy something with longer legs and more seating so it can be used for something other than just delivering ministers to Brussels.
                    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                      So many options that don't require an exec jet to be purchased. Replacing the Lear with something Lear like would be a huge lost opportunity. The PC12s have shown they can do the UK hospital transfers the Lear used to do. Let them do it.
                      Buy something with longer legs and more seating so it can be used for something other than just delivering ministers to Brussels.
                      100% agree. There's been enough flak (pun not intended as we are talking about aircraft) about not being able to evac citizens from Libya, military personnel from DRC (?) and the lack of an ability to do troop rotations to/from overseas missions.

                      The logical thing would be to buy something with transatlantic capability, the ability to interchange interior fit outs (depending on role)

                      Someone posted a photo of something like this a while ago (think it was a Luftwaffe purchase?)
                      "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

                      Comment


                      • Hasn’t there been an interdepartmental group working on MATS since the economic crash?

                        Learjet 45 too small and too short legs for a lot of jobs

                        C40 Clipper (or similar) could multitask (troop rotations, cargo etc) but way too overkill for most MATS flights

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                          Hasn’t there been an interdepartmental group working on MATS since the economic crash?

                          Learjet 45 too small and too short legs for a lot of jobs

                          C40 Clipper (or similar) could multitask (troop rotations, cargo etc) but way too overkill for most MATS flights
                          Something like this would be a good starting point for a conversion. Took me all of 10 secs to find working with Mr Google so even the DoD could manage to do the same.

                          http://flightplanet.com/jet-aircraft...800__28102.php

                          A conversion into a freighter is around USD$4m though the time secured milcoms and RoRo palletised seating for a Combi are completed you would double that - still cheap, certified and ticks boxes. Gates of Switzerland can fit the long range additional tanks to give it P-8A endurance if a couple of extra mil was thrown into the projectThirty years of useful work for the Irish Army Force and the people of Ireland.

                          https://www.controller.com/listing/f...oprop-aircraft

                          And here is a nice near new PC-12 for $USD$6m for MATS that could with a Pax/Medevac/Light Transport mission fit conversion would do nicely for MATS / Medevac.
                          Last edited by Anzac; 4 February 2022, 21:56.

                          Comment


                          • Again. A321 XLR in the same conversion that the Luftwaffe used.

                            Comment


                            • Fine looking aircraft

                              First A321LR For German Air Force Rolls Out


                              BY JOANNA BAILEYPUBLISHED SEP 10, 2021The German Air Force (Luftwaffe) has unveiled the first of two A321LRs destined for troop transport and medical evacuation. The two aircraft were ordered by Lufthansa Technik last year, on behalf of the Luftwaffe, and will be delivered to the Air Force in 2022.
                              ACJ321LR rolls out of the paint shop


                              It’s been just over a year since Lufthansa Technic ordered a pair of A321LRs from Airbus Corporate Jets. These two aircraft are destined to be outfitted by Lufthansa Technik on behalf of the German Air Force (Luftwaffe), and will be used in missions such as transporting of troops and medical evacuations.

                              This week, the Luftwaffe unveiled the first of these aircraft as it emerged fresh from the paint shop in Hamburg. The A321LR is painted in an all-grey livery with Luftwaffe titles and the temporary registration of D-AVXU. It will eventually be assigned the Air Force registration of 15+10.


                              Both A321s came from an order placed by Lufthansa for 40 A321neos. They were upgraded to the LR variant and the order taken over by Lufthansa Technik. They are set to replace the Airbus A310 ‘Kure Schumacher’, a 32-year-old aircraft carrying registration 10+23. This aircraft was decommissioned last week, and will now become a feature at a local zoo – the Serengeti-Park Hodenhagen, located 50 km (31 miles) from Hannover airport.
                              To Lufthansa Technik


                              The aircraft is planned to be delivered to Lufthansa Technik in mid-October, where it will receive its interior fit-out to prepare it for entry into service. The interior will have a combination of seats and patient transport units, with the capabilities to switch between layouts for specific missions.

                              AeroTELEGRAPH says that, in total, the A321LRs will be able to have an amazing 18 different interior configurations. These range from passenger transport of 136 to a maximum of 163 passengers, as well as a flying hospital for six critically ill patients or up to 12 moderately sick or injured individuals.

                              The aircraft will be capable of flying to the maximum range of 4,200nm/7,800km or 9.5 flight hours, according to Airbus. At the time of the order, Benoit Defforge, ACJ President, commented,
                              “We are thrilled Lufthansa Technik has become the launch customer for the ACJ long-range version of the world’s best-selling A321neo. The ACJ320 Family features the widest cabin of any single-aisle aircraft in the sky, providing the greatest passenger comfort and intercontinental range. Lufthansa Technik and the German Government have a long-standing relationship with Airbus and we are proud of this new milestone order with us.”


                              A long-standing relationship indeed. In fact, Lufthansa Technik has ordered a total of five Airbus aircraft on behalf of the German Government. As well as these two narrowbodies, the firm also ordered three ACJ350-900s for replacement VIP transport. Colloquially dubbed ‘Merkel One’, the first of these was delivered to Lufthansa Technik in May last year, entering into service with the German government in January 2021.
                              Wondering, how much conversion work, if any Can be done at Shannon?
                              For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Anzac View Post

                                Something like this would be a good starting point for a conversion. Took me all of 10 secs to find working with Mr Google so even the DoD could manage to do the same.

                                http://flightplanet.com/jet-aircraft...800__28102.php

                                A conversion into a freighter is around USD$4m though the time secured milcoms and RoRo palletised seating for a Combi are completed you would double that - still cheap, certified and ticks boxes. Gates of Switzerland can fit the long range additional tanks to give it P-8A endurance if a couple of extra mil was thrown into the projectThirty years of useful work for the Irish Army Force and the people of Ireland.

                                https://www.controller.com/listing/f...oprop-aircraft

                                And here is a nice near new PC-12 for $USD$6m for MATS that could with a Pax/Medevac/Light Transport mission fit conversion would do nicely for MATS / Medevac.
                                If we are getting something big it really needs to be a QC combi

                                we already have a PC12NG and 3 x PC12NG Spectre

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