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  • And for the rest of the world, who are not computer programming nerds, it means "Oh Shit! Its the same as!"
    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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    • Aut viam inveniam aut faciam.

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      • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
        And for the rest of the world, who are not computer programming nerds, it means "Oh Shit! Its the same as!"
        For the computer nerds who are not mathematical nerds.

        The notation a ≠ b means that a is not equal to b


        Last edited by CTU; 8 June 2014, 18:48.
        It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
        It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
        It was a new age...It was the end of history.
        It was the year everything changed.

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        • I think this thread has gone off on a tangent...
          'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
          'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
          Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
          He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
          http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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          • this thread has been the best debate in a while......... im glad it has not gone off the rails much....
            Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.

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            • Kindly remain on-topic.
              That said, it might behove a lot of people here to read an average e-tenders tender from any government department and look at the awarding criteria and realise what actually happens.
              "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

              "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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              • Actually the Ford Ranger was, until 1981 the name of the F series range.

                It was only in 83 that it was decided that only the compact version of the truck should be called ranger and the others go by their F series number.

                But, FMP

                since we are getting to definitions

                A military vehicle is any vehicle used by armed forces.
                However there are also combat vehicles, which of course although combat vehicles are military vehicles not all military vehicles are combat vehicles.

                The Chevi M1009 used by Sweden and the US military are "militarised commercial vehicles".
                They are light service support vehicles
                They came into service in the 70s when the US Defence department realised that the military needed what I guess you call a white fleet.

                The fact of the matter is that the DF is not generally in a combat situation. As you pointed out CIT etc are not what you consider military roles but are in fact the roles the vehicles we are using are tasked to do. The Ford ranger has in fact a better safety record than the g-wagon.
                Maybe the problem is for most of what we do we need this white fleet.

                You talk about Australian and Canadian fleets but fail to realise that they are spending on their light vehicle fleet what the DF has to spend on its annual budget.

                Maybe you can explain what wiki mean by
                The P4 is a militarised Mercedes Geländewagen marketed by Peugeot for the French military.
                isn't the Mercedes Geländewagen the g-wagon?
                How can the french militarize an vehicle that you claim is a military vehicle already??

                Or is it all back to the original definition?
                Last edited by Saab; 9 June 2014, 01:15.

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                • A military vehicle is any vehicle used by armed forces.
                  Therein lies the problem, what we need is milspec vehicles.


                  We used Toyota Lite ace and Renault Vans in the past, while painted green and used by the DF they didn't meet any recognized Mil Spec.

                  By the same logic Mil Spec doesn't mean 'combat capable'

                  Pajero has the same problem.

                  isn't the Mercedes Geländewagen the g-wagon?
                  How can the french militarize an vehicle that you claim is a military vehicle already?
                  They modify it to meet there own published Mil Spec.

                  The Mercedes G wagen was originally marketed as a Civilian 4 x 4 and upgraded according to the users requirements.....as opposed to buying them off the shelf and fcuking them up as we did with Landrovers for those who remember that saga.
                  Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                  • what is milspec ? Usually means somewhat soldier proof in my experience or its painted green .... Facetiousness aside a lot of people are getting hung up on possibly unfamiliar terminology. Does anyone have a link to a station-wagon type tender doc for any commonwealth forces ?
                    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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                    • Why does the Artillery Corps use the yellow surveying equipment (that is used on building sites)?

                      Because the exact same equipment, that is painted green and tested to NATO standards is 4 times the price

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                      • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                        Why does the Artillery Corps use the yellow surveying equipment (that is used on building sites)?

                        Because the exact same equipment, that is painted green and tested to NATO standards is 4 times the price
                        Its also made in Ireland.

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                        • Originally posted by trellheim View Post
                          what is milspec ?
                          Actually in the USA Milspec is

                          MILITARY SPECIFICATIONS PROMULGATED BY MILITARY DEPARTMENTS/ AGENCIES UNDER AUTHORITY OF DEFENSE STANDARIZATION MANUAL 4120 3-M
                          there are some here http://siri.org/msds/gn.cgi?query=promulgated

                          So if the DF produces a spec for military equipment in Ireland any equipment bought to that spec is Irish Mil Spec.

                          I am sure many other countries have the same.

                          Murph according to FMP's earlier posts the g-wagon is a purpose built military vehicle.
                          Are you contradicting that?
                          Or is a German military vehicle not a military vehicle in France until it gets the right coat of paint.

                          Funnily enough, since the Italians only buy from their own industry where possible I am sure that their mil specs would say the all military trucks must be made by Iveco or Fiat.
                          So by their standard the g-wagon is not a military vehicle.

                          What was the LR saga?
                          I was only told they were crap on the road. Something about dodgy steering but weren't they supposed to be great off road?
                          Last edited by Saab; 10 June 2014, 01:09.

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                          • Murph according to FMP's earlier posts the g-wagon is a purpose built military vehicle.
                            Are you contradicting that?
                            Mercedes had a 4 x 4 comercially available during the 70's was popular amongst the horsey crowd and was for sale on the open market before it became popular as the basis for a military vehicle that was adapated to meet a military vehicle specification.

                            !972 vs 1979 for the G wagen

                            Check out the article

                            This year marks the 105th anniversary of the very first commercially available four wheel drive vehicle – created in 1907 by Daimler-Motoren-Gesellschaft (DMG). The ‘Dernburg-Wagen’ featured not only four-wheel drive but was also equipped with four-wheel steering to aid manoeuvrability. With ground clearance of 32-centimetres and powered by a substantial 6.8-litre, four-cylinder engine developing a


                            Land Rover original was an agricultural vehicle built fro Jeep spare parts that evolved into the byword for 4x4 vehicles but no one ever said it was a tractor!

                            The Germans used the Volkswagen Iltis as did the Canadians, the French the Hotchkiss M201

                            What was the LR saga?
                            We tried to convert the original series 109 111 series to diesel and made an arse of it using factory supplied kits, straight forward you might think, not so.

                            We then tried to introduce an extra frive belt as an alternator/ generator for Radio equipment and tore the bejaysus out of the engine.

                            So if the DF produces a spec for military equipment in Ireland any equipment bought to that spec is Irish Mil Spec.
                            As opposed to buying a commercial vehicle off the shelf and painting it green......

                            Inclusion of a 24 volt electrical system with be working toward, draw up a specification for a vehicle as opposed to a tender requirement and insist on that which makes it functional in military environment.Inclusion of the upper rear window in the Nissans these were specifications unique to the military , and thus the production runs were unique to an Irish Mil Spec.. nothing facetious in that.

                            Inclusion of standard NATO hitches on all vehicles, recognized military standards.

                            Don't even think of Iveco / Ford Trucks.... a saga unto its elf. The parent company is a 52% holding in Ford Europe and the vehicle is a Ford Cargo, so is it actually purely Italian apart from being a heap of shite!
                            Last edited by hptmurphy; 10 June 2014, 17:40.
                            Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                            Comment


                            • Saab

                              Before you start crying "contradiction" I suggest you read all my posts on this topic again. This time read them for the information contained within and not for the purpose of trying to pick holes in them.

                              I have never once stated that either Land Rover or G Wagon were conceived as military vehicles. Never even hinted at it. I have however gone to great lengths to try and explain to you the difference between the civilian Land Rovers (which have been about from the late 40's) and their military counterparts. The difference between the civilian G Wagon and the Canadian and Australian military counterparts (As well as reference to some french built ones).

                              All of this is completely ignored by you.

                              Do I have to go through it again? I suggest instead you reread my posts.

                              Both the Land Rover Wolf and the Canadian and Australian G Wagons are Purpose built from the ground up to military specifications. They do not start life as a high end SUV or Chelsea tractors and are then "converted". They start life on a production line set up by MB and LR to build vehicles for military costumers. To their required specifications. From a rolling chassis which is different to their civilian counterparts, and bit by bit, nut by nut, bolt by bolt are built from the ground up, to suit their intended purpose. They did NOT start life as an SUV and were later "converted".

                              Just how hard is that to understand?

                              I have explained in black and white on these pages time and time again what the difference is. You still don't seem to be able to grasp it. Perhaps you consider the vehicles used in the DF like the GR or the Pajero as military specification vehicles, because there green, because they have radios in, etc. Perhaps you think the DF's idea of a vehicle fit for military use is the same as every other armies? Again I have tried to highlight the difference, which you completely ignore.

                              You talk about CIT as a reason not to have a MOTS vehicle, what do we need it for when all we do is drive from town to town? This is a role handled by police and private security the world over. Not by the national Defense force. Its a poor excuse.

                              You talk of economy of scale as a reason not to standardise the various fleets with MOTS vehicles. The DF is too small and does not have enough vehicles to make it viable. Correct? That is what you said is it not?

                              New Zealand has a land force half the size of Ireland's, +/- 4.500 all in. Yet they can do it. Their light green fleet is comprised of over 300 6 x 6 Pinzgauger's. Covering roles from GS soft top, to Hard Top C2, FFR, SRV, LAD, and Armoured. Their HGV fleet is made up entirely of MB unimogs again filling numerous roles, TCV, Ambulance, Hiab, C2, Wrecker, Prime movers. Their high mobility HGV fleet (being revitalized and will replace a lot of the Unimogs) will comprises 200 Rheinmatall MAN trucks in 4 x 4, 6 x 6 and 8 x 8, in numerous roles, TCV, DROPS, Tractor/Semi trailer, dumper and wrecker models. And yes, they do also have a "white fleet".

                              So whats our excuse now? Were too big!

                              Saab, your arguments don't make sense mate. If you listen to what people here are saying (not just me) you will see that. Your trying to defend the undefendable. Your trying to pick holes and put words in peoples posts in order to contradict them instead of taking in what their saying. Instead of looking at the big problem, the various fleets in the DF are in shite state, because of lack of foresight, lack of understanding of how the system works elsewhere and because of penny packet procurement. A total disaster and there is NO excuse for it, so stop making excuses.

                              We are however still no further along to finding a Pajero replacement (on these pages). Whatever the DF do eventually decide upon I can only guess. Past performance being a good indicator of future performance I have no doubt what so ever that it will again prove to be a disaster unless they learn from others, redefine their Concept of Operations and buy into long contracts for proven, tested and in use vehicles. Most importantly, learn from their countless mistakes.

                              But then again, pig's might one day fly.
                              Last edited by FMP; 11 June 2014, 12:34.
                              We travel not for trafficking alone,
                              By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
                              For lust of knowing what should not be known,
                              We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.

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                              • we're not the only ones that **** up. Look at the saga of the Reynolds-Boughton in the British Army. It ate money and resources like a savage and ended up being taken out of service. Im quite sure that the NZ, German, Italian and French armies also have their own procurement horrors. Sometimes, buying off the shelf works because militaries don't get to dick around. Rule 1: never buy the mark 1 of anything. The DF and DoD forgot that several times and paid the price, literally.

                                regards
                                GttC

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