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  • #46
    Funny.I remember being out in africa and lads getting a bollocking from the CS for not wearing their base layers going on day patrols.The point was made one day when one lad went down with heat exhaustion on a foot patrol in close jungle.Guess what??
    He was the ONLY one on the patrol not wearing his DRIFLO.(We had all taken on tons of water beforehand and been ordered to take a rapolyte beforehand also so we were well prepared)
    Timor is not really comparing like with like as the DRIFLO didn't come on stream till 2003.All the lads had in Timor were OG cotton t-shirts which soaked up sweat and retained it.
    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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    • #47
      Just my 2c on this as someone who is a walking furnace most of the time.


      The pre-driflo tshirts could quickly become a hypo/hyper hazard due to the moisture retention as noted already here. That provided ample justification for going shirt on skin. In certain scenarios this still applies with driflos but really only in scenarios where you will be substituting a hyper efficient insulator like crc kit i.e. The additional heat retention of the outer layer more than compensates for the conduction of a soaking shirt.

      That said while the shirt/driflo combo makes the most sense most of the time I'm a big fan of being able to wear the new driflos as an outer when appropriate.
      Cycling back and forth on jungle trails in 40c I wore a long sleeve lifa top (with lightweight uv reflective pants) kept me just at the balance of tolerability over five hours while other members of my group were puking in tshirts and shorts. There's a lot to be said for 1. Wicking for breathability which imo lets you sweat more efficiently and 2. Keeping the sweat cooled fabric close to your skin.

      On the other hand in the desert I wore a light jacket over the same base layer to stop it getting heated by the sun.
      "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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      • #48
        Originally posted by apod View Post
        Funny.I remember being out in africa and lads getting a bollocking from the CS for not wearing their base layers going on day patrols.The point was made one day when one lad went down with heat exhaustion on a foot patrol in close jungle.Guess what??
        He was the ONLY one on the patrol not wearing his DRIFLO.(We had all taken on tons of water beforehand and been ordered to take a rapolyte beforehand also so we were well prepared)
        Timor is not really comparing like with like as the DRIFLO didn't come on stream till 2003.All the lads had in Timor were OG cotton t-shirts which soaked up sweat and retained it.
        my point was we didn't have the dryflo and just wore the shirts,and that was that.
        Ps a lad with heat exhaustion is funny !!!!
        Last edited by kaiser; 15 August 2014, 15:18.

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        • #49
          How in the name of Christ are "young lads" getting pinned with so much of this shite?

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          • #50
            Ps a lad with heat exhaustion is funny !!!!
            I have to admit.to my shame,we did piss ourselves laughing.Then we kicked in and CASEVAC'd him ASAP! Heat exhaustion can be a killer.

            Originally posted by Fridge Magnet View Post
            How in the name of Christ are "young lads" getting pinned with so much of this shite?
            Dry your eyes redarse!
            "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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            • #51
              I'm with apod on this ... Why? I never had this shit to contend with. The biggest failing was with the introduction of the DPM uniform where shirts were allowed outside the trousers. All went down hill after that. Point on the old green shirts they wee issued short sleeved and jumpers worn over as required. NS was some what easier as rig of the day ashore was slapped into you ashore and at sea you wore what was required and were told what to wear and when
              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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              • #52
                Originally posted by apod View Post
                Would you like some ....... stop taking this personal.It's not.
                Apod, Assumptions, personal attacks and contradictions. What you say in one post you deny in another. You say it is nothing personal and then you make several personal attacks, you say you are arguing the point and then attack the man. You make assumption after assumption and then argue as if these assumption are fact. Debate??!! - this is not a debate, this is a screaming fit from you. And yes, you are a moderator, so I assume this post won't last long but it is time someone pointed it out to you.

                You did attack me personally at several points. You questioned my abilities as an instructor and a soldier. what you are in favour of is idleness and laziness People like you... I cant see where anybody in their right mind... Would you like some ketchup with your chip mate and you have attempted to shout me down Sleeves down during winter soldier! . DON'T make personal attacks and then defend yourself by attacking me for taking personal attacks personally.

                The real debate (and this is debating so take notes) is whether sleeves up/down is correct based on the parameters you set = "duty of care". How having your sleeves up or down really affects you body temperature while in barracks, and with the layering system in play, is beyond me. I offered you an occasion where sleeves up would be "duty of care". There is no manual or instruction as to which is correct, merely the opinion of the NCO or Instructor as to what they consider to be "Duty of care". Both Sleeves up or down care both be considered correct based on the parameter of "Duty of Care". Going beyond that parameter, Sleeves Up/Down is detailed by the senior NCO within the unit as is his/her duty with higher instruction from Army Authorities (which in this case is extremely limited and vague), Laziness or personal style does not come into it, but obedience of orders. Going beyond that parameter again one gets into personal opinions of what the set down dress state should be as a hypothetical. Due to it being hypothetical, it is difficult for an answer to be right or wrong unless it goes in the face of facts (which in this case are limited). So it is down to personal opinion.

                Now that is debating - placing facts into a coherent argument stream without resorting to personal attacks, shouting down or snide remarks. Note I even used the term "one" to refer to people in general rather that the term "you" which can be mistaken for referring to you personally which was not the case in that sentence. Whether the substance of my argument/thesis is good enough to withstand your counter argument/anti-thesis is what debating is all about hopefully to either prove the thesis or anti-thesis correct or to arrive at a synthesis based on one or both of the debaters theses. The verbal diarrhoea that you have contributed which you believe amounts to coherent debate is typical of a knuckle dragging Neanderthal who considers "The Sun" to be high brow and deep deliberation of current issues - That last sentence was specifically and deliberately put in, without malice, to show you what constitutes a low brow, but acceptable debating attack on what was said (the first part of the sentence) against what is a highly personal and emotivating attack on the person (the second part of the sentence), this as you seem to have trouble understanding what constitutes acceptable content criticism versus unacceptable personal attacks.

                Yes, I have a chip on my shoulder when it comes to you. You have attacked me, make snide remarks about me, and questioned my abilities for no reason. You even distorted what I had said in order to attack me, either that or you didn't read it at all. And all under the guise of what you term "debate". I have made no assumptions about you, nor questioned your abilities (but have questioned your arguments) and tried to refrain from personal attacks. And if there were personal attacks on my part, then I assure you they were not intended as hurtful or derogatory (if they came across this way then I apologise) but merely to point out the fallacy of your argument and your strong arm approach to toward me personally and my argument. Your personal attacks on me, despite utterance to the contrary, have been deliberate and unacceptable.

                This is an discussion forum with a topic in hand - debate the topic.
                Last edited by madden; 17 August 2014, 03:19.

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                • #53
                  In the interest of fairness I have reread all you previous post(bar the one you deleted) and my replies.Also in the interests of fairness and so you don't feel even more paranoid and aggreved than you do now i am stating on the record that NOBODY is going to remove your last post.Why??Because you seem to think I am some kind of tyrant here,(I assure you I am not but would be happy to hear why you think so) and will remove any comment that goes against mine.NOT the case.Also,and this has already been explained to you,I am debating you as a forum member NOT a MOD.So lets park that there.
                  This thread started with a simple question.I responded and gave advice based on my own experience and knowledge of how things are done.You disagreed with my post.fair enough.You then sniped another members post with the comments about CELO vs CEFO.I called you out on that as I believed you were showing off and your comment came off as nitpicking,catty and pedantic.YOU then went nuclear and started throwing all kinds of accusations and complaints about me and showed that you seem to think I am somehow persecuting you.NOT THE CASE.YOU then deleted your response as you felt you would not get a fair crack of the whip.Again.NOT THE CASE.
                  All done??Move on?? NO. My next post.....
                  Originally posted by apod View Post
                  The BSM,CS and Pln Sgt's are the people who are supposed to decide dress policy and standards within a unit.Problem is if the BSM deffers to much to the Adjutant and doesn't take ownership themselves.Then you have a snag.Seen it before with some unit OC's directing mad ideas such as shirt sleeves up all year 'round.Some duty of care to the troops there

                  Just because you don't like it personally doesn't mean it is wrong
                  - I much prefer the "sleeves up all year round" SOP as it is far more practical and easier to work with with the layering system. To me the "Sleeve up, sleeves down" is a mad idea. Thought it was insane when I was a Private and still do - nearly the only guy walking around the barracks with sleeves down because my BS thought it was a super idea and made us "stand out" from everyone else (duty of care didn't come into it). Thank God my next BS knew it was kack and went with what the lads wanted (and the rest of the barracks was doing).
                  I made a point about unit OC's not showing duty of care.You came back with YOUR personal opinion.Nowhere here did i direct anything towards you.

                  As for Duty of care - that is what the layering system is for; You are in a warm room (and we all know how the Army loves to turn on the radiators full blast) and need to cool down, the short sleeves are great. You need to layer up - Barrack Jacket. Layer up again - Norwegian under the Barrack Jacket. Layer up yet again - smock. No matter how cold it gets, when you are layered up, you don't notice if you sleeves are up or down.

                  But LS T-shirt with Shirt sleeves up, now that is a mess.

                  Duty of care to me would be allowing people to strip down to short sleeves when they are overheating.

                  Long sleeves - Some duty of care to the troops there
                  You made some fair comments here but then attacked my previous point about duty of care with an eyes up to heaven.A personal attack that you could have left out.
                  To be fair I then responded in kind and got shitty with you for getting shitty with me.My last comment was meant in jest however.Perhaps a smiley would have clarified that.


                  I agree with you on the last - I said as much but you didn't bother reading what I said, assumed you knew what I said, assumed you knew better and blah, I see it every day. Young soldiers making fools of themselves by thinking they know better and assuming lot of stuff. You assumed I said I was in favour of idleness and laziness. Never said that, never implied it.
                  The problem was you had implied it.And yes I attacked your statement as what I saw was excusing lazziness and poor standards.If I got the wrong end of the stick I apologise but i do see that attitude to such matters regularly and quite often it stems from the following...

                  As for the rest of it - Yeah, I am all for what the Lads want. Got to look after the lads - that is what a good NCO does or should do. I don't like Long sleeves because it is impractical and, IMO, looks bad.

                  "Leadership by appeasement" as a certain well known former NCOTW instructor would say.A good NCO does what is RIGHT weather it's popular with "the lads" or not.That's the burden placed upon us.I don't give a shite if johnny 3* wants his sleeves up in January because he can't be arsed to iron his shirt sleeves or wants to show off his guns.he will do as I tell him and I don't care how much of a prick he thinks I am.I get paid to do my job.End of.Now,having said all that if the same Pte came to me 20mins later with a problem I would go over and above to help him out. That's leadership and care.I treat my subordinates like i do my kids.Grip them when neccessary but me a caring dad the rest of the time.Kids/Young Pte's need and even if the wont admit it,like having boundaries.They know where the line is and how far they can push it
                  Then again, Driflo in an office - never been that lazy bu if that is the standards you go by......
                  I made a coherent argument why this could be neccessary and you attacked me again.if you re read you earlier post you stated " Duty of care to me would be to allow people to strip down to short sleeves when they are overheating".Contradicting yourself a bit there??

                  As I said already (but you don't read what I say so just assume I said whatever you want me to say and we'll go with that !!!), thankfully my unit SOP is sleeves up all year round. I follow orders and unit SOP. If your unit SOP is sleeves down, then bravo. But mine isn't, thankfully. But you want me to break orders and do my own thing - and you question me on my standards?

                  I take pride in my uniform, I keep myself to a high standard. If you want to throw accusations based on your owned flawed assumptions, then go ahead, it debases what you say which is rubbish anyway. I've never seen a clear order from the Army on the policy, rescinded or not. The only reason I have ever seen for Long sleeves is the "Look at me, I'm different and Special"

                  I am not talking about overseas or on the ground where, yes, sleeves down make a lot of sense for various reasons. I'm talking in barracks - but then again you assumed I said differently and ....

                  Actually, forget everything I said, You are going to assume whatever you want me to have said, so assume away.
                  Again here you went off on a rant and attacked me again.I called you out and asked you take this to PM's.You don't want to do that.It is you that is debasing yourself.Not me.
                  Contd......
                  "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Contd...
                    Originally posted by madden View Post
                    Apod, Assumptions, personal attacks and contradictions. What you say in one post you deny in another. You say it is nothing personal and then you make several personal attacks, you say you are arguing the point and then attack the man. You make assumption after assumption and then argue as if these assumption are fact. Debate??!! - this is not a debate, this is a screaming fit from you. And yes, you are a moderator, so I assume this post won't last long but it is time someone pointed it out to you.

                    You did attack me personally at several points. You questioned my abilities as an instructor and a soldier. what you are in favour of is idleness and laziness People like you... I cant see where anybody in their right mind... Would you like some ketchup with your chip mate and you have attempted to shout me down Sleeves down during winter soldier! . DON'T make personal attacks and then defend yourself by attacking me for taking personal attacks personally.



                    Now that is debating - placing facts into a coherent argument stream without resorting to personal attacks, shouting down or snide remarks. Note I even used the term "one" to refer to people in general rather that the term "you" which can be mistaken for referring to you personally which was not the case in that sentence. Whether the substance of my argument/thesis is good enough to withstand your counter argument/anti-thesis is what debating is all about hopefully to either prove the thesis or anti-thesis correct or to arrive at a synthesis based on one or both of the debaters theses. The verbal diarrhoea that you have contributed which you believe amounts to coherent debate is typical of a knuckle dragging Neanderthal who considers "The Sun" to be high brow and deep deliberation of current issues - That last sentence was specifically and deliberately put in, without malice, to show you what constitutes a low brow, but acceptable debating attack on what was said (the first part of the sentence) against what is a highly personal and emotivating attack on the person (the second part of the sentence), this as you seem to have trouble understanding what constitutes acceptable content criticism versus unacceptable personal attacks.

                    Yes, I have a chip on my shoulder when it comes to you. You have attacked me, make snide remarks about me, and questioned my abilities for no reason. You even distorted what I had said in order to attack me, either that or you didn't read it at all. And all under the guise of what you term "debate". I have made not assumptions about you, nor questioned your abilities (but have questioned your arguments) and tried to refrain from personal attacks. And if there were personal attacks on my part, then I assure you they were not intended as hurtful or derogatory (if they came across this way then I apologise) but merely to point out the fallacy of your argument and your strong arm approach to toward me personally and my argument. Your personal attacks on me, despite utterance to the contrary, have been deliberate and unacceptable.

                    This is an discussion forum with a topic in hand - debate the topic.
                    Deep breaths mate.You'll feel better.I have shown above why I attacked your Original post.It was YOU that made assumptions, made this personal and kept sniping at me.I merely responded in kind.I made coherent arguments but again,because you don't like my opinion,or me,you keep going off on rants and screaming persecution.I tried to be concilliatory but again you just want your soapbox.Fair enough.
                    I have taken this as far as I am willing to go.Your problem with me is just that.Your problem.Deal with it.People who know me better here know I am not as you have tried to make me out to be.I will let them be the judge.

                    PS: Please don't assume that because we have had a difference of opinion/argument that I will treat you any differently as a MOD going forward.I won't.But if you attack me i will bark back.Fair enough?
                    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Apod,

                      Firstly note that most of my initial comments which you took offence to were merely repeats of what you had previously said towards me - repeated in order to show how you had made things personal and to ridicule your opinion that you were not in the wrong. The fact that you have taken offence to them in stunning given that it was you who uttered them first and you are taking offence to your own comments.

                      Examples
                      Apod: I see it every day.Young soldiers coming out.....
                      Madden:I see it every day. Young soldiers making...

                      Apod: So basically madden what you are in favour of is idleness and laziness....
                      Madden: never been that lazy....

                      Apod: some NCO's who don't like to enforce dress standards....
                      Madden: the standards you go by......
                      I have also attempted to remain on topic, my last post specifically referring to the topic and continuing my arguments on the issue. I don't think either of you last 2 posts even made mention of the topic but consisted almost exclusively of defending yourself and attacking me - completely dragging the thread off topic.

                      The CELO/CEFO comment comment was not, imo, nitpicking,catty and pedantic - you merely saw it that way. But you are a moderator and that is your prerogative. I did not intend it to be like that and was extremely surprised at your reaction to it. As I said already, if it was seen as being that, then I apologise to the original poster. I made complaints to the moderators as to your comments, but then thought better of it and decided to move on as it was possible that my comment was viewed incorrectly despite no intention to be derogatory.

                      However, the complaints that I made to the moderators were for moderators only as I would hope all complaints are treated with the confidentially that they deserve > If I had intended them for all and sundry to read, I would have posted them on an open forum. But I didn't. However you, using your powers as a moderator and breeching that confidentiality, have decided to use those comments to further your argument on an open forum. I note you only used those parts that suited you and did not mention the complaints in full including the parts where I withdrew my complaints due to my changed opinion that it was not worth getting annoyed over. Unfortunately I do not have copies of those complaints as they were to a "supposedly" confidential area of the forum but you obviously have and have no issue with using them to your own benefit.

                      So forgive me if I look upon your comment of i am stating on the record that NOBODY is going to remove your last post or you seem to think I am some kind of tyrant here, I assure you I am not with EXTREME scepticism. I did make efforts to ensure that you would not delete or amend my post but am unable to prevent you from posting confidential information. I requested a fair chance of responding to your comments without you using and abusing your moderator privileges. It seems that is not possible.

                      I have made efforts to further ensure that you do not amend or delete this post and I have made another complaint in relation to your conduct. This time I have kept a copy and am posting it here so that you cannot pick and choose what confidential information to reveal in the future:
                      I believed that complaints to moderators were confidential. But I have seen these complaints being referred to in order to further an argument by a moderator. I no longer have access to those complaints but the moderator does and is using them make personal attacks against me. Am I incorrect in assuming that they are confidential? And if they are, will anything be done to censure the moderator involved?
                      So I believe it is time to bow out of this exchange before you decide to pull out some nuclear option and delete/amend/ban/infract or whatever due to my disagreement with you that Long sleeves during winter a duty of care issue.
                      Last edited by madden; 18 August 2014, 01:01.

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                      • #56
                        Is it just me, or does anyone else think these two are SO going to ride... The unresolved sexual tension is killing me.
                        Aut viam inveniam aut faciam.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Captain Edmund Blackadder View Post
                          Is it just me, or does anyone else think these two are SO going to ride... The unresolved sexual tension is killing me.
                          I think you should get a shorter username so it doesn't hide the "go to latest post" button when using a mobile....
                          Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by captain edmund blackadder View Post
                            is it just me, or does anyone else think these two are so going to ride... The unresolved sexual tension is killing me.

                            lol

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Maybe it is time to give the whole thing a rest, move on and back onto topic?

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Again.NOBODY is going to delete your post!!How many times does that have to be said FFS
                                I responded to you as a fellow member NOT as a MOD.How many times does that have to be said??
                                I have not abused my position as a MOD.I offered to take this to PM so we could keep this off the main forum and not divert the thread.You declined by continuing to respond here.
                                I defended myself against your attacks both here and by other means.Simple as.If you don't like that.Tough.I don't answer to you.You seem determined to get a pound of flesh,and have the last word.Fine.Childish but fine.

                                Now.Lets return to the topic.
                                "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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