Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

T[h]anks or no t[h]anks

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Which was the plan on a Mowag based platform until some one on the infantry side blew the budget on the second batch of APCs. The Cav had been told. Mowag 6x6 with big gun.....were jumping up and down..and then were told to get another 10 years out of the AMLs because of the cost of the upgrades. Money went on APCs. Which in hindsight wasn't that bad as the first batch of Mowags were falling apart at the time.

    I was in the workshops in 2009 where there was a Mowag parked up outside still in Liberia colurs and off the road for at least three years at that point[ATTACH]7777[/ATTACH]

    The 90s and 20s from the same mission were under canvass never to move again

    [ATTACH]7778[/ATTACH]
    Except we only have enough for a battalion, which means we can't have a full Mech Bn overseas (especially with an Mech Inf Gp overseas at the same time) because you also need at least min of a Mech Inf coy at home for training rotations (plus normal training/ops)


    Originally posted by spider View Post
    I'm not wanting to get into the whole Irish Army vs British Army thing.

    But is the British Army's newly evolving Light Calvary role something the Irish Army could adopt in conjunction with the relatively small number of armoured vehicles they operate?

    This is a result of lessons learnt in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    This new Reserve Unit has just been formed in Scotland and Northern Ireland http://www.army.mod.uk/armoured/regiments/28480.aspx

    Light and agile recce specialists with the vehicles and firepower to extract themselves out of contact with enemy forces.

    The Protected Patrol fleet offers mobility for personnel and loads whilst offering protection from mine and ballistic threats. These versatile vehicles are used in combat, combat support and combat service support roles across the battlespace, including within the direct fire zone. Some have an organic self-defence capability which can be optimised to support offensive operations.


    Reconnaissance troops are an essential element in the gathering of battlefield intelligence. They are trained in the art of information gathering by stealth, both from vehicles and on foot, providing information 24-hours a day to commanders in all weather conditions.


    Also I believe to be used to screen and protect the flanks of logistics convoys etc.

    Useful for UN missions?

    I suppose my point is Calvary don't necessarily have to operate tanks / armoured cars.

    Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    I always wondered why the DF was fixated on cavalry when such creatures were not in the DF's original heritage and seem to have evolved for parade purposes and the tie-in to the Curragh horsey set, rather than any practical need. The Brits have always had "light" troops of one kind or another but then they have also had the great mass of men, tanks and artillery to take on large enemy forces or to occupy large swathes of ground or conduct defence in depth of large fronts and the means to move them, such as transport airpower and helicopters and the logistics train to support them. The DF can't do things on that scale so it can only be a light force, by default.
    Cavalry or light troops or ISTAR troops have to be fully mechanised, preferably airmobile and self-sufficient logistically by virtue of need. So, they need all the wheels they can get, armoured or not, to be mobile enough to do their job. Right now, it appears to me that to put a DF company abroad in a semi-static role, you need a regiment or equivalent to sustain them, in terms of consumption of resources, such as spare men, tools, kit, weapons, vehicles, portable housing, engineering,etc,etc.

    regards
    GttC
    In a light infantry based force you may be better to have the fully armoured option.

    However, something along the lines of the ARW Vehicles (or if the threat is high something along the lines of your suggestion) could be of use to infantry support Coys for recce and fire support

    We need to keep our logistics tail as small as possible as we don't have the resources (and will often be dependant on others)

    Comment


    • #32
      Is that a Diamond T, Murph? I drove one in Syria in 1997! Long story...
      Tis indeed, came out of Clonmel, supposed to be restored fort the Cavalry Collection, don't know what happened.

      I had a conversation with an officer in the old 31 Cav Sqn, I believe he is now gone. He recommended something very similar. Soft top Land Rovers that could have up to a 12.7mm mounted for reserve cav units to give a light cavalry combat recce skill set. He saw it as a low cost high return suggestion which would give a huge boost in capability.
      Same guy had an interest in some of the OTOKOR products being viable options for the same type operation.

      Except we only have enough for a battalion, which means we can't have a full Mech Bn overseas (especially with an Mech Inf Gp overseas at the same time) because you also need at least min of a Mech Inf coy at home for training rotations (plus normal training/ops)
      When we bought the MOWAGs were were only providing FMR cover to UNIFIL, mission concept didn't ever envisage a Mech Bn, just Mech Coys, we had enough for that with one batch of MOWAGS.

      Would have been a better option to equip the cav, off load the AML fleet and then buy another batch of APCs,remember we are talking 1999/2000 here and the country was awash with money.
      Last edited by hptmurphy; 10 September 2014, 22:56.
      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

      Comment


      • #33
        I always wondered why the DF was fixated on cavalry when such creatures were not in the DF's original heritage and seem to have evolved for parade purposes and the tie-in to the Curragh horsey set, rather than any practical need.
        Every thing was based on a brigade strategy and the Recce element of Brigades was Cavalry in both US and British and French set ups. By the end of WW1 cavalry had evolved to Armoured cars and later light tanks. DF Cav never did the horsey thing so Recce was based around softskins and motor bikes and armoured cars. Hence the evolution . Had the Irish DF been in existence 50 years earlier it would have been horses no doubt.

        Historically we tried to emulate the make up of larger forces albeit in penny packets, establishing 'Corps' for roles that would be carried out by companies of any brigade make up.

        the traditions were established, the fifedoms built and based on that tradition , while feasibly could be operated as integral parts of a support corps, will retain their own corps status with its rank structure thus retain jobs for the boys including a fleet of Colonels the DF doesn't really need.
        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
          Which was the plan on a Mowag based platform until some one on the infantry side blew the budget on the second batch of APCs. The Cav had been told. Mowag 6x6 with big gun.....were jumping up and down..and then were told to get another 10 years out of the AMLs because of the cost of the upgrades. Money went on APCs. Which in hindsight wasn't that bad as the first batch of Mowags were falling apart at the time.
          The AML 90 replacement was always planned to be the last procured, simply because they didn't know what was a suitable replacement and wanted to watch what other armies ended up with, letting them make the mistakes. There was a lot of new stuff coming on the market in the early 2000's, such as low velocity 120mm guns and light weight turrets with full size 105mm guns suitable for APC hulls. No one I believe had a wheeled APC armed with a 105mm gun in service at the time.

          It wasn't a case of the infantry blowing the budget, the plan was (going from memory), 40 infantry cars in 2001, 40 more in 2003, Cav and Arty cars in 2005 and then finally what became LTAV after that.
          It was all going well until Smith cut the second order to 25 causing the whole plan to crumble.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
            I would also adopt the French attitude of bringing the biggest bang you've got with you, when you go on tour, as much as possible.
            I have an issue of C&S that had an article on the French Unifil contingent its weapons included LECLERC main battle tanks and Mistral anti aircraft missiles. It also reported that the mistral teams where very close within 5 seconds on opening fire on Israeli aircraft.

            Comment


            • #36
              Cracker of a thread gents. Very interesting reading. Well done and thanks.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                I always wondered why the DF was fixated on cavalry when such creatures were not in the DF's original heritage and seem to have evolved for parade purposes and the tie-in to the Curragh horsey set, rather than any practical need.
                The Armoured Car Corps was renamed Cavalry Corps because by 1934 the Corps had added the Tank Cadre, a Horse Squadron, a Cyclist Squadron as well as the school and workshops to its strength so the original title was deemed not suitable for the diversity of units it now had.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by ODIN View Post
                  I had a conversation with an officer in the old 31 Cav Sqn, I believe he is now gone. He recommended something very similar. Soft top Land Rovers that could have up to a 12.7mm mounted for reserve cav units to give a light cavalry combat recce skill set. He saw it as a low cost high return suggestion which would give a huge boost in capability.
                  from recall the Light Cav concept has come out of the Brigade Reece Force we've been using in Afghanistan - it works, its fun, its a superb capabilty, and it produces excellent soldiers.

                  truth is, you don't have (or correction, you don't take..) the firepower to get involved in a stand-up fight (Armour, Artillery, AH etc..), so instead you should look to a very mobile force that can zip about and conduct short-lived attacks on the enemy and then leg it before he has the time to bring his big sticks to the fight. arrive out of nowhere, let rip with some ATGW, a dozen 81mm mortar rounds and a box of 0.5 and then disappear, then turn up 3 hours later 30 miles away and do the same.

                  the same model also happens to work for the kind of PK/PE missions Ireland has done recently - Chad, Liberia - and is likely to do again: massive OA's facing irregular forces in areas with relatively small but widely spaced populations. what you need is self-sufficient, multi-day, long-range patrols with the firepower and mobility to both cover very large distances and deny the enemy forces use of great tracts of land, and light cav gives you that - and at a fraction of the price of doing everything by helicopter...

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    The Italians had/have the Centauro and the French have had a long 90mm car for ages. The long 90 is proven as a vehicle unit and as a good shell. Effectively, the DF has nothing to offer in the way of mobile gun power apart from 40mm agl, 30mm car cannon and machine guns and an overdependance on Javelin and AT-4 unless it drags mortars around or takes the plunge and brings 105s on tour. In effect, unless it brings the bigger toys out, they are confining themselves to the 2-3000 yard mark in defence and attack and overwatch for patrols. To my mind, it leaves capability gaps that requires fixing and an element of luck; ie;potential bad guys don't have heavy weapons or heavy vehicles or even air cover and it forces dependence on others.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                      The Italians had/have the Centauro and the French have had a long 90mm car for ages. The long 90 is proven as a vehicle unit and as a good shell. Effectively, the DF has nothing to offer in the way of mobile gun power apart from 40mm agl, 30mm car cannon and machine guns and an overdependance on Javelin and AT-4 unless it drags mortars around or takes the plunge and brings 105s on tour. In effect, unless it brings the bigger toys out, they are confining themselves to the 2-3000 yard mark in defence and attack and overwatch for patrols. To my mind, it leaves capability gaps that requires fixing and an element of luck; ie;potential bad guys don't have heavy weapons or heavy vehicles or even air cover and it forces dependence on others.
                      Having said that you can probably put a Javelin and crew in a CRV/MRV

                      But on some PSOs you may need the physical deterrence of a big gun

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                        from recall the Light Cav concept has come out of the Brigade Reece Force we've been using in Afghanistan - it works, its fun, its a superb capabilty, and it produces excellent soldiers.

                        truth is, you don't have (or correction, you don't take..) the firepower to get involved in a stand-up fight (Armour, Artillery, AH etc..), so instead you should look to a very mobile force that can zip about and conduct short-lived attacks on the enemy and then leg it before he has the time to bring his big sticks to the fight. arrive out of nowhere, let rip with some ATGW, a dozen 81mm mortar rounds and a box of 0.5 and then disappear, then turn up 3 hours later 30 miles away and do the same.

                        the same model also happens to work for the kind of PK/PE missions Ireland has done recently - Chad, Liberia - and is likely to do again: massive OA's facing irregular forces in areas with relatively small but widely spaced populations. what you need is self-sufficient, multi-day, long-range patrols with the firepower and mobility to both cover very large distances and deny the enemy forces use of great tracts of land, and light cav gives you that - and at a fraction of the price of doing everything by helicopter...
                        Until you are patrolling an urban area/population centre, have to engage with the population, have to leave the vehicles (be it a CIMIC op or a CTR)

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                          When we bought the MOWAGs were were only providing FMR cover to UNIFIL, mission concept didn't ever envisage a Mech Bn, just Mech Coys, we had enough for that with one batch of MOWAGS..
                          Strange the first place they were deployed was enough for a pln+ to UNMEE

                          We only ever provided elements of the UNIFIL FMR (and never in MOWAGs)

                          There is some info here

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Wonder how many MOWAGS and LTAVS are still fully operational at this stage... every time im down, there are lots being taken apart and you keep hearing grumbles about the snags and bugs and that up to half the fleets are unavailable at any time or of LTAVS that spend more time on low loaders than driving. The DF need to revisit procurement rules once more methinks.
                            "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
                            "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              The DF would need to invest in more mechs, especially electronics people, as well as have people on full-time shift to provide 24-hour maintenance. I did hear a story that a civvie mech joined them and was getting stuck in and was swiftly put in his place, by some of the "Union rules, Bud" characters. Might be time for an overhaul of manpower practises, too. Might be time to step back and give a realistic assessment of what the DF system can deliver, in terms of cars per day and adjust forecasts accordingly.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                It wasn't a case of the infantry blowing the budget, the plan was (going from memory), 40 infantry cars in 2001, 40 more in 2003, Cav and Arty cars in 2005 and then finally what became LTAV after that.
                                It was all going well until Smith cut the second order to 25 causing the whole plan to crumble
                                .

                                Look back to when the Cav concept of OPs changed in 2001, there was no longer a role for the AMLs , Thye were looking at at Grizzly /cougar type replacement but straight from Mowags shelf. Then the plug was pulled and the AMLs soldiered on with no role after Liberia, so they were pulled and relegated to The RDF, who actually did quite well out of it, problem being by 2009 the school were no longer running AML driving course with guys going directly to MOWAGs.

                                We only ever provided elements of the UNIFIL FMR (and never in MOWAGs)
                                Exactly we only had the concept of Mech Ops, never realife experience of working with bigger numbers of APCs given we had 4 Sisus available. It was fine to buy these things off the shelf, we then had to learn to use them, and more importantly maintain them and worse again deploy them, when among the group we normally worked in overseas we were the only user of a very high spec piece of kit.
                                Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X