White Paper - When is it due to be published?

[DeV]

Realistically for the DF to get money it has to add value, like the Niamh’s trip to Asia.

Anything that can be done by the DF to raise the perceived importance of the DF with the voter, other Government Departments and Government aids it case for increased funding.

It is also an opportunity to learn from other organisations and have input into potential future equipment as a potential end user.

[na grohmiti]

Realistically for the DF to get money it has to add value, like the Niamh’s trip to Asia.

Anything that can be done by the DF to raise the perceived importance of the DF with the voter, other Government Departments and Government aids it case for increased funding.

It is also an opportunity to learn from other organisations and have input into potential future equipment as a potential end user.

I wonder where did the cost of fuel & food come from for that trip. While the trip was great experience for it's crew, it was a wholly inappropriate use of a military asset. If Ireland overseas wants to entertain local industry, then do it in the Embassy or hire a marquee. People don't join the Defence Forces to work as waiters and waitresses for VIPs.
Around the same time an Australian Frigate visited Cork. On it's way here it took part in exercises with numerous other navies on the way, took part in Ceremonies to mark the Gallipoli campaign, the D-Day landings and its crew carried out memorial services for Australian soldiers buried overseas.
Meanwhile back home, the DoD who sanctioned using a Naval vessel as a floating cocktail bar in Asia, blocked sending another naval vessel on a resupply trip to those deployed overseas.

[DeV]

I wonder where did the cost of fuel & food come from for that trip. While the trip was great experience for it's crew, it was a wholly inappropriate use of a military asset. If Ireland overseas wants to entertain local industry, then do it in the Embassy or hire a marquee. People don't join the Defence Forces to work as waiters and waitresses for VIPs.
Around the same time an Australian Frigate visited Cork. On it's way here it took part in exercises with numerous other navies on the way, took part in Ceremonies to mark the Gallipoli campaign, the D-Day landings and its crew carried out memorial services for Australian soldiers buried overseas.
Meanwhile back home, the DoD who sanctioned using a Naval vessel as a floating cocktail bar in Asia, blocked sending another naval vessel on a resupply trip to those deployed overseas.

Same vessel called to Eriteria on the way

[na grohmiti]

Same vessel called to Eriteria on the way

On your way to Baldonnel from McKee, can you pop into Haulbowline too?

[Egbeygia]

I wonder where did the cost of fuel & food come from for that trip. While the trip was great experience for it's crew, it was a wholly inappropriate use of a military asset. If Ireland overseas wants to entertain local industry, then do it in the Embassy or hire a marquee. People don't join the Defence Forces to work as waiters and waitresses for VIPs.
Around the same time an Australian Frigate visited Cork. On it's way here it took part in exercises with numerous other navies on the way, took part in Ceremonies to mark the Gallipoli campaign, the D-Day landings and its crew carried out memorial services for Australian soldiers buried overseas.
Meanwhile back home, the DoD who sanctioned using a Naval vessel as a floating cocktail bar in Asia, blocked sending another naval vessel on a resupply trip to those deployed overseas.

This unfortunately is a situation that persists to this day. P61's trip to New York and Boston in 2019 involved the hosting of numerous cocktails on board in both ports, at the behest of DFAT but not a single opportunity was entertained either for potential PASSEX with the USN or USCG or ven as much as personnel visits to local-based units. Boston alone is home to a major USCG base and considering the USCG are in the process of constructing a potential 25-ship class of P61-class derived Offshore Patrol Cutters, it can only be considered a massive opportunity missed for both services. Where does the blame lie though? DOD, DFAT, DFHQ, NHQ, or a combination of all of the above?

[ancientmariner]

I wonder where did the cost of fuel & food come from for that trip. While the trip was great experience for it's crew, it was a wholly inappropriate use of a military asset. If Ireland overseas wants to entertain local industry, then do it in the Embassy or hire a marquee. People don't join the Defence Forces to work as waiters and waitresses for VIPs.
Around the same time an Australian Frigate visited Cork. On it's way here it took part in exercises with numerous other navies on the way, took part in Ceremonies to mark the Gallipoli campaign, the D-Day landings and its crew carried out memorial services for Australian soldiers buried overseas.
Meanwhile back home, the DoD who sanctioned using a Naval vessel as a floating cocktail bar in Asia, blocked sending another naval vessel on a resupply trip to those deployed overseas.

Such a trip to the Far East and her circumnavigation of South America via Cape Horn and home via Panama adds to transclimatic experience. It also hones navigation skills and verifies long range communication. The fuel gets burned anyhow .
Working with other Navies is critical to synchronise procedures and standards. Currently the world is actually at non-operational war via "Lawfare", social media, cell phones, hacking, and challenging deployments close to each others territories..

[na grohmiti]

Such a trip to the Far East and her circumnavigation of South America via Cape Horn and home via Panama adds to transclimatic experience. It also hones navigation skills and verifies long range communication. The fuel gets burned anyhow .
Working with other Navies is critical to synchronise procedures and standards. Currently the world is actually at non-operational war via "Lawfare", social media, cell phones, hacking, and challenging deployments close to each others territories..

Her later mission was slightly better. More interaction with other navies. Less civic functions aboard to which the crew were not guests. Likewise for Eithne's trip south. Yes a statue was delivered, but also the crew got fantastic experience inland using their naval and engineering skills to assist those in remote communities.
But I don't like seeing ships crews being used as hospitality staff. That isn't what they trained for. Definitely not what they joined for. If you want to have a function aboard ship, hire caterers. Invite the crew as guests in their Best kit.

[DeV]

Her later mission was slightly better. More interaction with other navies. Less civic functions aboard to which the crew were not guests. Likewise for Eithne's trip south. Yes a statue was delivered, but also the crew got fantastic experience inland using their naval and engineering skills to assist those in remote communities.
But I don't like seeing ships crews being used as hospitality staff. That isn't what they trained for. Definitely not what they joined for. If you want to have a function aboard ship, hire caterers. Invite the crew as guests in their Best kit.

Nothing to stop them doing all the above.

[ancientmariner]

Her later mission was slightly better. More interaction with other navies. Less civic functions aboard to which the crew were not guests. Likewise for Eithne's trip south. Yes a statue was delivered, but also the crew got fantastic experience inland using their naval and engineering skills to assist those in remote communities.
But I don't like seeing ships crews being used as hospitality staff. That isn't what they trained for. Definitely not what they joined for. If you want to have a function aboard ship, hire caterers. Invite the crew as guests in their Best kit.

When a ship is deployed on a mission, all crew are part of the mission effort. In the case of a show the Flag or National support mission then there are periods whereby invited dignitaries are entertained or public are allowed tour designated areas of the ship. The food and items to be used, including gifts ,are on board before departure and key gift items are already engraved for the recipient eg head of State, Admiral, member of parliament etc. On the Big days none of the crew is a guest but assist as required. Show The Flag is an important part of a Warships Mission to promote Country and most accept it as so.

[na grohmiti]

When a ship is deployed on a mission, all crew are part of the mission effort. In the case of a show the Flag or National support mission then there are periods whereby invited dignitaries are entertained or public are allowed tour designated areas of the ship. The food and items to be used, including gifts ,are on board before departure and key gift items are already engraved for the recipient eg head of State, Admiral, member of parliament etc. On the Big days none of the crew is a guest but assist as required. Show The Flag is an important part of a Warships Mission to promote Country and most accept it as so.

Show the flag? Yes.
Employ trained technicians as hospitality staff? No.
The idea that "It's always been done this way" is no longer a valid excuse.

[DeV]

Show the flag? Yes.
Employ trained technicians as hospitality staff? No.
The idea that "It's always been done this way" is no longer a valid excuse.

Nothing to stop a vessel going to a number of different ports (especially with the MRV) conducting training with other navies (eg participation in an tactical Ex), supporting Enterprise Ireland with some visits, conduct conferences with overseas militaries, doing some humanitarian work etc etc. On a single trip (could even have the legs and size to do a resupply and/or participate in an overseas operation).

The MRV will allow that..

Ireland is a small open economy which is export focused. Without that our economy collapses and members of the DF don’t get paid (at all)!

If the DF is siloed into Defence only and doesn’t engage with supporting the State we will not get support from other departments for its funding needs

[na grohmiti]

Nothing to stop a vessel going to a number of different ports (especially with the MRV) conducting training with other navies (eg participation in an tactical Ex), supporting Enterprise Ireland with some visits, conduct conferences with overseas militaries, doing some humanitarian work etc etc. On a single trip (could even have the legs and size to do a resupply and/or participate in an overseas operation).

The MRV will allow that..

Ireland is a small open economy which is export focused. Without that our economy collapses and members of the DF don’t get paid (at all)!

If the DF is siloed into Defence only and doesn’t engage with supporting the State we will not get support from other departments for its funding needs

What support do we currently get from other departments for our funding needs? I haven't seen the Dept of Transport jumping up and down recently demanding Military Air Defence radar or fighter jets to maintain the safety of their airspace.
I didn't see Dept of Agriculture demanding replacement for the 2 coastal patrol vessels, to protect inshore fisheries?

[DeV]

What support do we currently get from other departments for our funding needs? I haven't seen the Dept of Transport jumping up and down recently demanding Military Air Defence radar or fighter jets to maintain the safety of their airspace.
I didn't see Dept of Agriculture demanding replacement for the 2 coastal patrol vessels, to protect inshore fisheries?

Did DoD look for them ??

[ropebag]

Did DoD look for them ??

If the wider state, not just a dozen lackies sat round a table, are outward looking and invested in the idea that a successful state is the product of ain interconnected network of mutually supporting services, then it shouldn't have to.

I don't doubt that DoD don't look for support from other departments, but I thought it was universally accepted that DOD is a pit of poison and failure, and so shouldn't necessarily be taken as being representative of what govt departments should be?

I can well imagine that DOT and DOD might squabble over which of them should be the lead for a primary radar network, but both would - I assume - think that it should be thing, and that the other party would have a legitimate role in its operation and expertise to bring to the table.

[ancientmariner]

Show the flag? Yes.
Employ trained technicians as hospitality staff? No.
The idea that "It's always been done this way" is no longer a valid excuse.

There is a protocol involved in ship visits and the protocol is traditional. Things must always follow a known system and tend to be done the way it has always worked best. The best people to take care of guests are the ships crew. If needs must, then ALL hands to the pumps!