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  • Could the Scorpion turret be made to fit onto Mowag hulls similar to the Cougar?



    If its a runner, why not send 6 Scorpions and 6 Mowags in need of TLC up to Johnstown and let the gurus up there work their magic with a tin-opener.
    At least whatever money is spent stays in the country and the fire support would now be able to keep up with the main body on a patrol.
    Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

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    • Jungle might be able to tell us how useful & successful this was for the Canadians. Aside from the cost of the fit, you'd also have the cost of upgrading the turret itself; if I remember correctly there's an issue with fume extraction.
      "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

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      • Originally posted by FMolloy View Post
        Jungle might be able to tell us how useful & successful this was for the Canadians. Aside from the cost of the fit, you'd also have the cost of upgrading the turret itself; if I remember correctly there's an issue with fume extraction.
        I think the fume issue was solved but other upgrades are also required (sights etc).

        Comment


        • Originally posted by FMolloy View Post
          Jungle might be able to tell us how useful & successful this was for the Canadians. Aside from the cost of the fit, you'd also have the cost of upgrading the turret itself; if I remember correctly there's an issue with fume extraction.
          If it was not successful, was it because of the limitations of the turret or the hull?
          If the Australians and Philippines are re-using their turrets, can we assume they are still capable of providing reliable support fire?
          If the limitation was with the hull of the Cougar, is it of relevance to how good or bad a 76mm equipped PIII would be?

          Was is simply just that the Canadians had plenty of other larger systems and didn't want the problem of spares and maintenance of the Cougar?
          If this was the case, it would re-enforce the argument in our case to move everything of that size to a common platform.
          Last edited by Archimedes; 18 February 2014, 16:01. Reason: added detail
          Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

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          • I think the key word is 'was'... this was trialled a long time ago had it even been relatively successful it might have popped up before now. The Canadians have had PIII s a lot longer than most.

            On a smaller chassis it might have been viable but why write off troop carrying capability to mount an obselete weapons system.

            My memory might be fading but didn't we just get rid of wheeled weapons system of greater calibre in the recent past?
            Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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            • What would the performance of the 76mm be like in comparison to the 30mm on the MRV? Is the performance of an older but bigger weapon sufficiently superior to that of a more modern but smaller calibre to justify the conversion? Do we have sufficient stocks of 76mm ammo, or access to new ammo at a decent price, to make the conversion economically viable?
              "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

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              • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                I think the key word is 'was'... this was trialled a long time ago had it even been relatively successful it might have popped up before now. The Canadians have had PIII s a lot longer than most.

                On a smaller chassis it might have been viable but why write off troop carrying capability to mount an obselete weapons system.

                My memory might be fading but didn't we just get rid of wheeled weapons system of greater calibre in the recent past?
                The Canadians also have Leopard tanks so they don't really need such a system.

                It has been pointed out in many threads that once an Irish patrol goes beyond the range of the mortars back in base (about 8km), it has limited organic fire support.
                The AML90 couldn't keep up with the PIIIs and sending the Scorpions involved too many logistical problems.

                If we already have the spares, mechanics, drivers etc there for PIIIs, does it not make sense to standardize on the PIII for fire support?
                If the Scorpions are not much use as they are, why not take the bit we can use (ie the turret) and use it to plug our lack of fire support?
                Last edited by Archimedes; 18 February 2014, 18:14. Reason: added quote
                Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

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                • Originally posted by FMolloy View Post
                  What would the performance of the 76mm be like in comparison to the 30mm on the MRV? Is the performance of an older but bigger weapon sufficiently superior to that of a more modern but smaller calibre to justify the conversion? Do we have sufficient stocks of 76mm ammo, or access to new ammo at a decent price, to make the conversion economically viable?
                  I'm certainly no expert here but I'm guessing that it very much depends on the target.
                  If you are up against a technical vehicle, I'm sure that the 30mm will make mince meat of it without needing to resort to a HESH round.
                  If however, you come under attach from 30 lads spread across an area, the flexibility of having HE, Canister, Smoke and Illum would give the commander a lot of options. Also don't know much about price of ammo but I can't imagine that the Philippines would be re-hulling their turrets if they were not confident of supply.

                  http://www.janes.com/article/32280/p...rrets-to-m113s

                  some photos of what the ammo can do at the bottom of this doc
                  http://www.scorpiontank.co.uk/PDFs/C...%202011%29.pdf
                  Last edited by Archimedes; 18 February 2014, 18:27. Reason: added extra link
                  Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Archimedes View Post
                    If its a runner, why not send 6 Scorpions and 6 Mowags in need of TLC up to Johnstown and let the gurus up there work their magic with a tin-opener.
                    At least whatever money is spent stays in the country and the fire support would now be able to keep up with the main body on a patrol.
                    If it was a runner, after all questions being answered relating to 76mm usefulness today and turret upgrades, its seems the most reasonable suggestion for the future of the scorpions yet. Make use of the most productive part of the scorpions and finally put an end to keeping an obsolete platform, both physically and doctrinally. would also increase fire support power and options overseas.

                    however, i'd rather see new hulls for the turrets rather than further reducing the troop carrying capabilities even more following the recent decision to re-turret some of the troop carrying vehicles for Cav. But buying new hulls would probably put the end to the whole idea at the same time!
                    An army is power. Its entire purpose is to coerce others. This power can not be used carelessly or recklessly. This power can do great harm. We have seen more suffering than any man should ever see, and if there is going to be an end to it, it must be an end that justifies the cost. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain

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                    • The Canadians also have Leopard tanks so they don't really need such a system.
                      Chalk and Cheese

                      MBTs are not recce vehicles, Scorpion, Cougar, AMl 90..all Recce vehicles.

                      let go back and see can we get a square wheel to turn!

                      If the Scorpions are not much use as they are, why not take the bit we can use (ie the turret) and use it to plug our lack of fire support?
                      why use a million euro hull to support an obselete gun????
                      Last edited by hptmurphy; 18 February 2014, 22:06.
                      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                      • "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

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                        • The main argument against the 76mm gun seems to be that it lacks the punch needed to take on modern armour.
                          Is that really what we want from a gun though? (especially when we have the javellin to hand)

                          In the conflicts that we find ourselves, it is often more desirable to drop a smoke shell in front of an aggressor or put an illum round over his head.
                          The 76mm gun has a useful HE round (about half the weight of a 105 round), a HESH round that can destroy bunkers and light armour as well as smoke, illum and canister options. Sure, a 90mm or a 105mm would be lovely but if we already have 76mm turrets, why not make them operationally useful.

                          The range is fairly suitable for a patrol support role (2.4km direct, 6km indirect). Having a modest sized gun means less impact on vehicle mobility.

                          Sell the remainder of the hulls to a corporate team building outfit that can replace the real turrets with fibreglass turrets and paintball ordnance, allowing accountants to re-enact Kursk and create a few jobs for exers. What other use does a toy tank really have.

                          As for future supplies of ammo, a quick look has identified two sources. I'm sure that there are plenty others
                          http://www.mecar.be/content.php?lang...nus=1156856583
                          http://www.scribd.com/doc/160769004/...tions-Brochure
                          Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

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                          • The advantage the gun has is versatility, a range of ammo (and targets) ability to fire warning shots, cheaper ammo, being obvious (where to want to encourage someone to back down).

                            105 is overkill for what we need, we aren't looking at engaging modern MBTs (if we are we have Javelin (tgat the DE can have)), the Cav are looking at engaging other recce vehicles, bunkers, buildings, giving fire support etc. A 90 would probably give a 3rd world older MBT a bad day.

                            The Scorpion (or vehicles fitted with Scorpion turrets) are the only Western vehicles that mount a 76mm gun, there are lots of 90mm's out there. I would imagine 90mm ammo is a low cheaper to buy.

                            The Cav need versatile, lightly armoured, well armed (in order to under all its roles), highly mobile medium-long range recce vehicles with a very good sensor suite and if possible a DE.

                            Armour is about compromise between firepower (including sensor fit), protection and mobility (strategic and tactical).

                            Due to the small size of the DF and IOT keep whole life costs down - the only real chassis option is the MOWAG Piranha.
                            Last edited by DeV; 19 February 2014, 08:56.

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                            • Fitting the L 23 on a mowag would be like putting a record player in your car.

                              I suspect that many of those commenting have never seen the 40mm grenade launcher combined with 12.7mm on the CRV mowag firing. Far superiour in terms of accuracy rate of fire and firepower against hard and soft targets, hence why theyre fitting them on the apc variant.

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                              • HK GMG is versatile but shorter range, can it do smoke & ILLUM ? (I think it can), not an much explosive content or armour penetration compared to 90mm.

                                But a cheaper alternative.

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