Scorpion replacment?

[DeV]

Lesson from the past, upgrade AML fleet and and down grade it and sdrap it within 10 years..hindsight...why bother making the same mistake with CVRT.

Downgrade?

No because you have to get it the party first.Tracked armour isn't built for roads its built to be carried to where its neeeded which slows down the whole QRF idea. Recce Vehicles of this nature were designed to be used in a coventional War of fix battles against a definite enemy.

Absolutely!
The main problem with tracked armour on roads is it wrecks the road & the tracks.

Armour as I've said before is about compromise:
Wheeled - fast & mobile on road, more limited off road mobility
Tracked - fast & mobile off road, uneconomical (and causes damage) on roads

So the Cavalry (and Infantry they support (they are a Combat Support arm)) don't need anything bigger than a HMG/40mm AGL or 30mm and a disposable (dismountable) element?

Scorpion is a very dated vehicle with limited crew protection built around a high spec petrol engine which needs high maintenence , has no troop carrying capacity and is very demanding of its crews and is unsuited for sustained patrolling.

Yes that can be updated, has a similar level of protection as a MOWAG, has an engine that can be replaced with something better, carries no troops so is smaller and has better armament.

.
Look at what the British Army has spent on dedicated tank transporters in the past years....and why... because tanks don't get driven any where, the get dropped there,fight,get picked up....and go home.

Slight difference between a Challenger 2 and a Scorpion.

Hence the German invasion of Russia in 1941 failed.......they wore out the tanks driving them to the battlefield.

Not the over extended supply lines, different railway gauges, scorched earth policy, weather, etc etc ?

The upgrade should have happened 10-15 years ago, when the rest of the Armoured fleet went diesel. It didn't. The scorpion no longer has a place on the armoured orbat. The only reason the UK forcec upgraded their scimtars etc was because they urgently needed vehicles of this type in Iraq etc. The Irish DF has no such urgent requirement in its overseas deployments, even if the vehicle was ever deployed. To date the cars have barely gone beyond the Glen of Imaal, and anywhere further was on the back of DROPS or Low Loader.

So if an upgrade was required then why is a Scorpion (or replacement) not needed now?

To quote the DF website - "in the case of 1 Armoured Cavalry Squadron an armoured combat resource to the Defence Forces", the Cav is more than ISTAR.

The reason they travel my low loader is because it is cheaper, safer and more economical.

To be fair the British CVRTs performed pretty well on long range patrols in Afghanistan.

Not every AFV is about physical force protection.

+1

Also, they aren't generally carried on low loaders and Scimitar will be around in the UK until at the very earliest 2015




My view is that the Cav Squadrons need to have a combination of LATVs, MRVs & CRVs.

A decision then needs to be taken on 1 Armd Car Sqn - as I see it options are:
1 - Equipped with combination of LATVs, MRVs & CRVs (but what is point is that if they are in in the Cav Sqns?)
2 - Upgrade Scorpion as an interim measure (but what is point in that when money could be spent on a replacement or more LATVs/MRVs/CRVs)
3 - Replace the Scorpions with a better armed more mobile vehicle (realistically and economically a 90mm armed MOWAG makes sense)
4 - Retire the Scorpions, issue their MOWAGs to where they should be (the Cav Sqns) and disband the unit

[DeV]

http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/showthread.php?16905-British-Army-Scimitar-replacement

http://www.ihs.com/events/exhibitions/dsei-2011/news/day-3/Scimitar-Mk-2-deployed.aspx

http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/showthread.php?19332-CVR(T)-Mk2-enters-service-in-the-British-Army

[hptmurphy]

Lets start at the Top

A decision then needs to be taken on 1 Armd Car Sqn

I ACS...is actually the First Armoured Cavalry Squadron.

Equipped with combination of LATVs, MRVs & CRVs

It is already!

Upgrade , Replace and Retire the same vehicle in the next three points.

Make your mind up!

To be fair the British CVRTs

Because they have diesel engines.........and they have an infinite supply of spares given at least four weapon systems were based on the same running gear.......and they still get carried to their FUP points and back to rest areas after patrols.

But

The Scimitar is seen as too light to offer any real protection against IED type threats, to be too small to carry a proper sensor fit, and too lightly armoured and armed to get itself out of trouble.

Also, they aren't generally carried on low loaders and Scimitar will be around in the UK until at the very earliest 2015

Carried to and from their exercise area and will be in service until the brits pull out of Afghanistan, we on the other hand will have scorpions until someone decides they are no longer cost effective or viable .

If some one were to audit the army around the equipment that is actually used in day to day operations in our overseas commitments versus the likelihood of some gear sitting at home waiting to be used but never being deployed, goodnight Scorpion....EL70 and Flycatcher wouldn't be too far behind.

So if an upgrade was required then why is a Scorpion (or replacement) not needed now?

Because now we have greater flexibilty with Mowag MIRV and the future spending might be targetted toward a Scorpion replacement witha couple more MIRVs as opposed to upgrading a vehicle that should already have been boarded.

[DeV]

My typo on 1 ACS.

I was laying out options (including getting rid of 1 ACS).

I'm not saying that we should upgrade the Scorpions (although they do have advantages) but my personal view is that they need a replacement (with a medium sized gun).

Why?
Because my personal view is that the Cav Sqns need armoured firepower and DEs to be able to do all the potential tasks they have. The LATVs, CRVs and MRVs are good for that, but we need to buy more to full equip them.

1 ACS is an DF (not brigade) asset so needs to be a strategic asset (probably held as strategic reserve) if it has the same equipment and capabilities as the brigade assets it doesn't. I think a 90mm is what is required. For economic and logistically purposes, it makes sense to mount them on MOWAGs (maybe with upgraded armour). Possibly we a DE as well, equipped with access to 84s/Javelins and AMSTAR.

AFAIK the EL70s and Flycatcher are no longer used. But they were operationally deloyed at home.

[hptmurphy]

Because my personal view is that the Cav Sqns need armoured firepower and DEs to be able to do all the potential tasks they have. The LATVs, CRVs and MRVs are good for that, but we need to buy more to full equip them.

1ACS are the only Cav unit in the country that possess armour of any description. 1 Cav Cork has none.

So why do we not have a centralized 1 ACS fully up to strenght that can deploy witha two brigade army and get rid of the remiander of the Cavalry units.... given all their kit is based in the Curragh anyway.

but we need to buy more to full equip them

.

Agreed, so just off load the scorpions and save money!

AFAIK the EL70s and Flycatcher are no longer used. But they were operationally deloyed at home

I wasn't sure that there were still in service given how recently we bought them but given the RBS system can do the job along with Girraffe why more replication.

[DeV]

1ACS are the only Cav unit in the country that possess armour of any description. 1 Cav Cork has none.

So why do we not have a centralized 1 ACS fully up to strenght that can deploy witha two brigade army and get rid of the remiander of the Cavalry units.... given all their kit is based in the Curragh anyway.
.

In fairness, the all arms light infantry based brigade structure would say each Brigade should have a squadron. The fact they are MOWAGs cost wise would say centralise in DFTC.

Doesn't make sense to commute to train on your equipment.

So maybe locate the units in DFTC, under OPCON of GOC of relevant Bde?

[kaiser]

I believe some mowags are goin eastwards ten I believe

[danno]

The scorpions and El70s are starting to look like something the BEF left behind in Dunkirk.

[DeV]

I believe some mowags are goin eastwards ten I believe

MRVs and CRVs?

[GoneToTheCanner]

At least the Bofors have a ground function; they can be used as an anti-personnel/anti-vehicle weapon. the Serbs even used them as a field gun in the Balkans wars. I think it's getting to the stage with the Scorpions that they're either subject to a massive upgrade or be pensioned off. Somebody has to take the decision to cull them as it's already beyond a joke at this stage, especially when you see them in museums or being driven by reenactors!!

regards
GttC

[kaiser]

MRVs and CRVs?

fvt,s I think

[BANDIT]

One of the previous posts went along the lines if u were hit up across a bog etc the last thing u would want to hear would be a rattling scorpion and the group of bloggers etc .
I would suggest that the last thing thing that u would want to hear would be that there is no one coming to help. and that u would not mind if it came in the shape of a 50 yr old tank

Its all about what u can afford and doing the best with what u have. As I have done before I question the expenditure on equipment that because of its cost restricts the number of units that can be purchased and thus what is available for deployment and training . In military terms we are a third world country , many police forces are better armed and equipped so why do we have to try and keep up with the us, brits etc in terms of high cost items such as MOWAGS. I am not saying that we should go back to comets or alouettes but we can often get more bang for our bucks for less technically advanced units. More money spent on training , better range facilities etc might be a better investment.
For example although they are two completely different items of equipment ,the T55 tank is still active in many countries , see lots of combat service world wide and is available for 50,000US for an upgraded version. They are oily, smelly cramped ands smokey but work and cannot compete with a challenger or abrahams but they are probably the most common tank that I have encountered , A mowag 1.5-2 M and there are still units down after three years
As regards the scorpions they are probably past their sell by date but if thats all u have and thats all u can afford, adapt them , use them ,and stop moaning. ,
Similary with other gear, adapt and modify as many armies dis in the pats and tend to do in wartime.

[hptmurphy]

As regards the scorpions they are probably past their sell by date but if thats all u have and thats all u can afford, adapt them , use them ,and stop moaning. ,
Similary with other gear, adapt and modify as many armies dis in the pats and tend to do in wartime.

(a) We're not going to war anytime soon
(b) We have lived far to long in the 'adapt' category holding on to stuff infinitum that ends up costing money in the long run.
(c) If a credible case cannot be made for their retention in view of current operations by the army, we don't need them and we certainly don't need to spend money on them.

[danno]

People in truble at sea etc dont seem to mind getting picked up with S61 which would be of similiar vintage to the Scorpions.Is it fair to associate the debated upgrade with the recently stoodown CoS.

[DeV]

Its all about what u can afford and doing the best with what u have. As I have done before I question the expenditure on equipment that because of its cost restricts the number of units that can be purchased and thus what is available for deployment and training . In military terms we are a third world country , many police forces are better armed and equipped so why do we have to try and keep up with the us, brits etc in terms of high cost items.

You are correct about making do with what you can afford up to a point.

In terms of equipment (for a light infantry based force) we are in the first world in terms from individual soldier to battalion level at least (if not brigade level). Our problem, as you state, is not having enough of what we have.


Why not former Eastern bloc? One word - interoperability