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  1. #926
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    There is one issue we have with potentially replacing scorpion with modern tracked armoured vehicle, and GTTC touches on it.
    Transport it one thing, having appropriate vehicles for transport is another.
    The Scorpion was lucky in having an overall width of 7 foot (2.134m). You standard DROPS pallet or low loader has a width of 8 foot (2.44m).

    • CV90 is 3.1m wide
    • Ajax is 3.3m wide
    • Puma is 3.9m wide
    • Dardo is 3m wide
    • ASCOD is 3.64m wide (12 feet)


    So forgetting weight completely all the modern generation tracked AFV are wider than standard vehicles. They are not DROPS compatable, and will require specialised transporting, and given the extra width involved will be incapable of travelling on many roads locally without escort (and some hedge trimming). Carrying a 3m plus wide tracked vehicle on a 2.4m wide trailer, even with sides extended, also puts extra fatigue on the tracks (as you don't want it sliding sideways, so you have to dog it down tight). We don't currently have any vehicles capable of transporting such vehicles. The UK are also struggling in this area.
    The other option, as is the case when transporting civilian oversided tracked vehicle, is remove the track for transport. Hardly tactical.

    An interesting article on the issue here https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2012/...onsiderations/
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  3. #927
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    The DF does not have enough Mowags for a NATO/EU standard sized brigade cavalary squadron, let alone pretending it has 3 x cav sqn's and a Mech Infantry Coy. Let's not be deluding ourselves with talk of IFVs

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  5. #928
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    It has the establishment for 3 cav sqns. It has never had the equipment or staff. Even when there was just enough armour for 3 Sqns (on paper), soft skin vehicles were always borrowed.
    However there is the danger that if you cut the estab to suit the equipment available, you will just end up shrinking the strength further.
    Better off having an ambition to reach full strength, and have the structure in place, on paper at least.
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  7. #929
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    The "squadrons" would be classified as troops in any EU/NATO comparison. Nothing against having an establishment to aim for but at least make it realistic.

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  9. #930
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    Quote Originally Posted by TangoSierra View Post
    The "squadrons" would be classified as troops in any EU/NATO comparison. Nothing against having an establishment to aim for but at least make it realistic.
    A troop is generally a Pln/Pln minus sized force or 4 vehicles

  10. #931
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    A troop is generally a Pln/Pln minus sized force or 4 vehicles
    Troops in other armies are much larger and closer to Company minus in size.
    Then again, cavalry troops in other armies are part of a Regiment of cavalry, rather than just a squadron and are capable of operating overseas as an independant force.
    They would also be divided into Armoured cavalry and Light cavalry. Our vehicles currently fit neither role.

    Someone needs to decide are Cavalry in Ireland intended as an armoured recce unit for a light infantry brigade, or a long range recce unit for a light infantry brigade.
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  12. #932
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    i think the cav is in limbo at the moment no deflation on it future role, its so caught up in recce it has forgot its other roles. Cav squadrons were always under strength and under equipped. i do think the corps has a better chance of getting more mowag CRVs and MRVs but the squadron orbat needs a real shake up. MRV can be used in Armour troop but i still believe CRVs are too big for recce troop and a vehical the can give troops more situational awareness is needed
    Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.

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  14. #933
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Troops in other armies are much larger and closer to Company minus in size.
    Then again, cavalry troops in other armies are part of a Regiment of cavalry, rather than just a squadron and are capable of operating overseas as an independant force.
    They would also be divided into Armoured cavalry and Light cavalry. Our vehicles currently fit neither role.

    Someone needs to decide are Cavalry in Ireland intended as an armoured recce unit for a light infantry brigade, or a long range recce unit for a light infantry brigade.
    The DF Cav orbat is based on a British orbat (Regt being Bn sized, Sqn coy sized and Troop being Pln sized.

    A US ACR is more like a Bde minus, the Sqn is a Bn, the troop is a Coy and a Pln is a Pln

  15. #934
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The DF Cav orbat is based on a British orbat (Regt being Bn sized, Sqn coy sized and Troop being Pln sized.

    A US ACR is more like a Bde minus, the Sqn is a Bn, the troop is a Coy and a Pln is a Pln
    I'm going to say that your comparisons in the UK case are incorrect. Before Options for change the Household Cavalry consisted of two regiments, The Blues & Royals and the Life Guards. The Blues & Royals deployed its recce troop of 9 CVR(T) from B Squadron. A regiment normally consists of at least 2 batallions or similar sized units. Options for change restricted the unit size while retaining regimental identity.
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  17. #935
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    http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogs...and-light.html

    an intresting read on where some see Light Mechanised Infantry and Light Cavalry going
    Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.

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  19. #936
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    Last edited by TangoSierra; 1st April 2018 at 15:32.

  20. #937
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    Quote Originally Posted by TangoSierra View Post
    404 error on that link
    Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.

  21. #938
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmark View Post
    404 error on that link
    Google "The Stryker Brigade Combat Team Cavalry Squadron in Decisive Action" by LTC Mark H. Hoovestol

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  23. #939
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    For reference:

    French 6th Light Armour Brigade is 6000 troops with about 2000 vehicles. Cavalry component is about 1000 troops.

    The German EU Battle Group of 2016 had + 3,500 troops with about 1000 armoured vehicles + attack/transport helix and an entire Mechanised EW Coy.

    The Franco-German Brigade is over 4,000 troops including a french Cavalry regiment that is larger than the entire DF Cavalry Corps and some CSS units combined.

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  25. #940
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    I'm going to say that your comparisons in the UK case are incorrect. Before Options for change the Household Cavalry consisted of two regiments, The Blues & Royals and the Life Guards. The Blues & Royals deployed its recce troop of 9 CVR(T) from B Squadron. A regiment normally consists of at least 2 batallions or similar sized units. Options for change restricted the unit size while retaining regimental identity.
    I stand corrected, now a troop is 3 or 4 vehicles.

  26. #941
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    Quote Originally Posted by TangoSierra View Post
    The DF does not have enough Mowags for a NATO/EU standard sized brigade cavalary squadron, let alone pretending it has 3 x cav sqn's and a Mech Infantry Coy. Let's not be deluding ourselves with talk of IFVs
    Its must be remembered the establishment was originally based around much different vehicles and the Orbatt dates back to this time and how it evolved in our own concept of ops. Any Orbatt would originally have been from the UK, but after WW2 things changed so dramatically we more or less went our own road. Again I harp back to the lack of dismountable troops from all the UK set ups right through the decades.

    It has been apparent since the demise of the Panhard fleet that we only have enough vehicles to equip one full strength establishment and that the other squadrons would feed through these positions if required.

    Pooled stock if you will.

    So why did we have tanks, originally we bought them as an infantry training tool prewar and then decided on a squadron, why were they assigned to the cavalry , because the infantry had no role for them.. the Churchills after all are infantry support vehicles and not designed as MBTs.

    The CVRT scorpion was bought for what its is...an armoured tracked recce vehicle and not a 'fighting tank per se' so its quit right that it should be replaced by another recce type and not actually a tank...... so if we class the MRV as armoured recce vehicle hey presto you have a replacement for Scorpion...and to my mind thats what the army has done and is why there won't be a tracked replacement type for scorpion.

    Someone needs to decide are Cavalry in Ireland intended as an armoured recce unit for a light infantry brigade, or a long range recce unit for a light infantry brigade.
    Given the lack of vehicles they are actually neither in purity but somewhere in between... now if you are looking for decisions you could be waiting a while.
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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  28. #942
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    I am sad to say I am old enough to remember when the DF only had 2 tanks, and just one of these was running.
    We have historically had tracked armour by accident, rather than by design. Even our Scorpion order was not delivered in full, with the latter elements being cancelled in place of Timoney APCs
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  29. #943
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    The phrase "Ireland is not suitable for tanks" is wheeled out every time someone mentions tracked vehicles, main gun, one, for the use of, there fore we shall not have MBTs or anything like them, in case they sink into soft ground or upset the County Councils by tearing up roads or annoy the horsey people who really own the Curragh or want to fire a noisy gun for further than a thousand metres.....so, think Mowag, which does none of the above.

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  31. #944
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    The phrase "Ireland is not suitable for tanks" is wheeled out every time someone mentions tracked vehicles, main gun, one, for the use of, there fore we shall not have MBTs or anything like them, in case they sink into soft ground or upset the County Councils by tearing up roads or annoy the horsey people who really own the Curragh or want to fire a noisy gun for further than a thousand metres.....so, think Mowag, which does none of the above.
    Sinking into soft ground, sound like we should get something that floats on land, maybe we should set up a "Landship Committee" to look into a solution?

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  33. #945
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODIN View Post
    If we are looking at light tanks to directly replace the Scorpion, why not look at the PL-01 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL-01). Based off the CV90120, and coming in at 35 tonnes fully armored, and has a 120mm smooth bore gun in a modular, unmanned turret.



    Export variant is due is 2022.
    Unfortunately, the project PL-01 was cancelled around 2 years ago. The reason was insufficient technological level of the Polish military industrial complex.

    IMHO this light tank (30-35t) could be an outstanding vehicle fort hose who can't buy MBTs.

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  35. #946
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    is that a hover tank?
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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  37. #947
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    is that a hover tank?
    Be careful what you wish for!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hovercraft_tank

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  39. #948
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    What's missing from talk about the Russian experience in Ukraine/Crimea is it's actual losses; how many actual vehicles/airframes/human casualties,etc? Journalists are resorting to reading death notices in Russian newspapers or watching railway stations or reading blogs from angry mothers of dead soldiers, to determine actual loss rates.
    In contrast to the Ukrainian losses, all Russian ones are classified.
    There are tons of materials over the issue, mostly in Russian language. I can advise you https://informnapalm.org/en/

  40. #949
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    A great historic talk on the Scorp, and why the Brits ditched it so quick. (most of theirs gained turrets from CVRW Fox, to become Sabres).
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  42. #950
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serge View Post
    Unfortunately, the project PL-01 was cancelled around 2 years ago. The reason was insufficient technological level of the Polish military industrial complex.

    IMHO this light tank (30-35t) could be an outstanding vehicle fort hose who can't buy MBTs.
    It was a CV-90 with a different shell AFAIK. Just go buy a CV-90 or, better, a Lynx.

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