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Thread: Naval DPM

  1. #1
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    Naval DPM

    For all you military anoraks:

    Apparently Naval DPM will replace working dress come January!

    The exact same kit and design as the current DPM but in Black, Dark Grey and Light Grey.

    As well as a decent working boot!

    Looking forwards to it personally what do you all think?

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  3. #2
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    What is the point of it? To blend in better with the sea if you fall overboard?
    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

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  5. #3
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    The point? Well there are a few as far as I can gather:

    1. The current working dress is muck.
    a. It looks kat on anybody over 40 or even slightly out if shape.
    b. It is closer to tissue paper than cloth.
    c. Wearing the current boots for the naval working day of about 16-18 hours is leaving us with trench foot!
    d. Its expensive!

    2. The cost of the new Naval DPM would save loads of money.

    3. The samples look great so why not!

    4. For plain Naval security details it'll be better than having to wear DPM, although of course DPM will remain for whenever we spend time on the ground or ranges details etc.

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    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    Then why don't they just use DPMs or get dpms made in plain navy fabric instead of a pointless corporate camo that is only for brand identity. Still needing to have dpms for ranges and shore duties just reinforces the money waste of having "naval DPM".
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    C/S CTU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
    For all you military anoraks:

    Apparently Naval DPM will replace working dress come January!

    The exact same kit and design as the current DPM but in Black, Dark Grey and Light Grey.
    Sounds like "Urban Camo",
    What next Air Corps DPM, using Blue and Yellow.
    Well, government doesn't stop just because the country's been destroyed! I mean, annihilation's bad enough without anarchy to make things even worse!

  10. #6
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    NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

    Awful, terrible, sinful idea.

    If you need new working dress/boots fine. But why does it have to be in DPM. Thats just the fevered dream of some Commodore in Naval Logs(?) who regrets not ticking the Army box on the Cadetship application.

    Look at all the problems the yanks have with their navy's DPM. To the best of my memory I've read of at least three separate cases where guys have gone overboard and were unable to be seen because of the DPM.

    If you need camo for a Boarding party/shore party surely a DPM pattern isn't the way to go. Flat Black/Blue/Gray is the much more obvious choice. The navy isn't exactly going to be storming beachheads.

    And Toolbox correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the reason the fabric in the Navy uniforms of 'tissue paper' quality is so grease, oil, fuel, semen, you know the stuff navy personnel encounter on a daily basis, can wash out of their uniforms more easily?
    To close with and kill the enemy in all weather conditions, night and day and over any terrain

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  12. #7
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    Yup it'll be some form of urban camo.

    Eh Havoc, if you go over the side wearing the current WD without a life jacket at this time of year your survival is doubtful.

    Unless your actually seen going over the side.

    Naval Boarding drysuit (black and yellow for fisheries and full black for tactical) are worn for all from the water evolutions.

    Daytime ops such as broad haven bay where piers and landing points had to be tactically secured to permit the landing of justice pers where also carried out in Naval Boarding Rig.

    Eh no the WD is tissue paper because it is crap.

    While kit would get far dirty in the navy while at sea, a decent modern fabric would stand up to the wash, it can't stand up to the wear and tear of sea life.

    And the Commodore is the flag officer commanding the naval service, the officer in charge of the stores would be a LtCdr rank I'd say.

    However FOCNS says and FOCNS gets! As is only right and proper!

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  14. #8
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
    Yup it'll be some form of urban camo.

    Eh Havoc, if you go over the side wearing the current WD without a life jacket at this time of year your survival is doubtful.

    Unless your actually seen going over the side.
    Your survival is doubtful whatever you're wearing, a NS officers trophy project uniform won't help. DPMs are in since 98 ish I think(?) surely over the years it occurred to the NS to get them made in Navy and craic on?
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  16. #9
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    This is a bit whackey.... anyway, would it not make sense to have a dye bag in everyone's uniform who is out on the deck, [manually triggered obviously]...
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    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Didn't the NS only get a new uniform in 2012?The general duties rig with a new boot also?Looked very smart.Why the need for another new kit two years on??
    Army personnel can't get any issue boots at the moment if they are size 8,10 or 11 and recruits are wearing XL DPM shirts tailored into Mediums due to shortages.But yet the NS can afford to spend money on a uniform they don't need??
    Yup.Good idea that
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    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  20. #11
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    Hi apod,

    They sure did and it's chronic.

    It just doesn't stand up to normal wear and tear.

    This would be the third if not fourth incarnation of working dress in the last few years but it does look like it's going bye bye fairly soon.

    Apparently the new kit will be highly cost effective than sourcing yet another supplier of working dress.

  21. #12
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    Reminds me of the days of the blue combats.
    For normal duties the NS pers require something practical for work aboard ship, and at the base. As far as I know the only thing the NS got in 2012 was a naval pattern barrack jacket. The rest has remained unchanged since the green/navy combats were replaced with the navy version of the DPM....The aussies changed their grey overalls in the mid 2000s for something similar.
    This seems unsuitable for the majority of tasks aboard ship.
    However I would have binned the idea of dpm dpms for range etc. It seems to me that the current kit lacks corporate identity, which was clear some weeks ago during the drug seizure photo op, when it was impossible to tell who was navy, who was garda and who was customs, except for the tab on their chest.


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  23. #13
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post

    Apparently the new kit will be highly cost effective than sourcing yet another supplier of working dress.
    How could printing and designing a bespoke camo pattern possibly be highly cost effective? How could NS working dress requirements be so unique that a rebadged foreign working dress wouldn't work?
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    Why do the Navy need DPM on the range?
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    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
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  27. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
    Why do the Navy need DPM on the range?
    i suppose it would depend on how seriously they take the 'every soldier/sailor/airman an Infanteer' crap...

    if they actually do take blokes out of the dirty parts of ships, give them a rifle and belt kit and make them play soldiers in the Gorse for a couple of weeks a year then yes, they need a Land DPM uniform, if however they do an annual 30 minute rifle/pistol shoot on a 25m barrack range to stay qualified then no, they don't need a Land DPM uniform.

    the corporate identity thing is, sadly, rubbish - journalists/politicians don't care about uniforms, they don't even read badges with the word 'NAVY' writen in 6inch letters across peoples chests, so expecting them to notice a different set of colours is just barking at the moon.

    during David Camerons recent trip to Afghanistan he was pictured getting out of a RAF C-17. the C-17 had 'ROYAL AIR FORCE' written in two foot high letters over his head, and another, smaller 'ROYAL AIR FORCE' stencil right next to the door. more than one newspaper reported him getting out of an 'Army transport plane'...

    providing clues for such utter mongs does not work - all that works is ever present press officers constantly talking to Journalists/politicians and even writing their copy/statements for them.

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  29. #16
    Chief Casey Ryback
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
    Why do the Navy need DPM on the range?
    Why would anyone need DPM on the range , it's not as if the targets are fireing back .
    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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  31. #17
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    The sight of NS peeps in Army DPM drives me bananas.....

    Not sold on the idea of NS DPM and but the NS needs to be clearly defined from other services as mentioned.

    On the subject of uniforms the quality of the current No 1 jackets is crap with the collars being to big to be covered by the blue jean collar.

    And get back small NS capbadges, to many folks going around with their capbadges encroaching on tally bands.
    Time for another break I think......

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  33. #18
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    Wondering if the DPM route is partly a reaction to Coveney floating the notion of merging NS & CG activities... they both have uniforms, but one has guns, the other does not.

  34. #19
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    Well to answer a few questions.

    It the same kit and pattern in the new different colours and will cost exactly the same as the current army DPM.

    DPM is required on ranges and all land tactical evolution because it's the appropriate rig as per standing orders.

    The sight of naval pers on land based evolutions in bastard rig infuriates me.

    The negative attitude towards a simple item such as DPM harks back to the bad old days of " d' navy".

    Some of the pictures of the shambles of crews that turned up to kinsale and kilworth almost proud that they looked like pirates as opposed to service men. Thank Christ those days are well past.

    DPM is issued during recruit training because they spend massive amounts of time doing physical activity of a land based military nature.

    Working Dress is not an appropriate rig for hauling logs around curraghbinny woods not would it be any good for the 10km forced march back.

    Christ only knows what you'd look like after get scratch on the first night of kilworth tactical phase.

    Has anyone here ever done hours of battle PT at night in snowfall in working dress? I will safely guess no.

  35. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by The real Jack View Post
    Then why don't they just use DPMs or get dpms made in plain navy fabric instead of a pointless corporate camo that is only for brand identity. Still needing to have dpms for ranges and shore duties just reinforces the money waste of having "naval DPM".
    NS can show the rest of the DF a thing or two about Brand identity, more of a good news story then bad.

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  37. #21
    Rittmeister Herald's Avatar
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    I'd imagine "printing" navel DPM is no more expensive than printing DPM in green/Brown/Black, as long as the numbers are large enough.I was shown some machinery in a plant in the far east last year where various flavours of Chino style pants were being made, the die was unique to the various brands, ie Hilfiger, dockers,Hugo boss etc, and in each case the material was slightly different, but the process was the same using different pantone for the dye.So as a result the costs were similar.

    Where I'd imagine the problem would lie is in the design, ie would the army uniform provide too much scope for snagging in an environment with lots of metal sticky outty bits?

  38. #22
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herald View Post
    I'd imagine "printing" navel DPM is no more expensive than printing DPM in green/Brown/Black, as long as the numbers are large enough.I was shown some machinery in a plant in the far east last year where various flavours of Chino style pants were being made, the die was unique to the various brands, ie Hilfiger, dockers,Hugo boss etc, and in each case the material was slightly different, but the process was the same using different pantone for the dye.So as a result the costs were similar.

    Where I'd imagine the problem would lie is in the design, ie would the army uniform provide too much scope for snagging in an environment with lots of metal sticky outty bits?
    It will be a lot more expensive as it would be a limited run!!

    Your going to have design and set up costs
    Then your going to samples done up
    Then your going to have say 40 sets done up for trials

    Then your going to have print enough material to clothe say 1000 people initially and say 50 new enterants annually (plus reclothe let's say 200-300 replacement issues annually).

    What's the problem with the current issue?
    Design / material / quality etc

    Would say a blue version of the standard DPMs suffice? Or do they need to be a different material (eg flame retardant, heavier warmer material, etc)? Or do they need less snag risks (eg pockets, draw strings etc)etc?
    Last edited by DeV; 6th October 2014 at 14:44.

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  40. #23
    Lt General Barry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    It will be a lot more expensive as it would be a limited run!!
    Not necessarily. You can break down the manufacturing process into two separate steps - pattern printing and the actual manufacture of the garment. If the only change made was the colours in the DPM then they just need a different base dye and the three other colour dyes, followed by a print run to make sufficient material for the order. Once the material is printed the actual manufacturing process is the exact same as for "green" DPM, just with the addition of appropriately coloured velcro, zips, buttons etc. If anything this is an amazing idea, as it means one supplier for two clothing ranges instead of two.

    There is still an argument to be made as to if there's a need for naval DPM, however. Plain blue material in the same pattern as DPMs surely would have done the job nicely? The equitation school have plain green versions of DPMs, so it's not like it hasn't been done before.

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  42. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    ...If anything this is an amazing idea, as it means one supplier for two clothing ranges instead of two...
    while i'm hugely cynical about the requirement for, or wisdom of, a Naval DPM uniform (particularly in the light of the experiences of the RAN and the USN of such, err... ideas..), the 400 ton elephant in the room is that this process shows how easy and cheap a desert/arid pattern DPM uniform would be to produce for overseas environments that warrant it..

    a new uniform to help sailors remain hidden when they fall in the sea, but soldiers working in the Saharan sun have to wear a dark green suit.. paging MicktheHack...

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    Lieutenant X-RayOne's Avatar
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    seems like the common sense gene has been returned to stores for somebody in charge of somewhere

    DPM material is designed to camouflage personnel in the environment they operate in. lets not forget this important point. so green based DPM is perfectly valid for soldiers on the ground, etc. the same holds for NS personnel on land based courses, duties, etc. the Glen doesn't change colours just because some sluggies rock up in blue DPMs. Cemetary Hill will still be green!!

    the other side of the coin is where the NS personnel operate ship board they don't need DPM. blue based DPM will only be effective in the sea or maybe onboard. however, on their own vessels they don't need camoulflage! and they have appropriate kit for boardings, etc.

    the whole idea seems like somebody is jumping on the "corporate image" bandwagon like USN and RAN. and both both ideas have been found somewhat wanting! there are other better ways to promote the NS "brand" if needs be.

    however, all that being said Ropebag makes the valid point about lack of availability of desert DPM where appropriate. too warry? we've all heard the stories of making overseas troops identifiable as Irish peacekeepers. personally, i'd rather blend in with my surroundings overseas and not have a bloody great Tricolour all over everything I wear.

    another valid point is the NS does without a doubt need a suitable, fit for purpose onboard uniform. fire retardant, not snaggy, comfortable, etc. however, I doubt current combats are the answer, whatever colour the material is. Cav crews have their own suits for inside vehicles. maybe something more like that or a flight suit style might be more fit for purpose onboard??
    Last edited by X-RayOne; 6th October 2014 at 16:10.
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