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  • #16
    Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
    Why do the Navy need DPM on the range?
    Why would anyone need DPM on the range , it's not as if the targets are fireing back .
    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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    • #17
      The sight of NS peeps in Army DPM drives me bananas.....

      Not sold on the idea of NS DPM and but the NS needs to be clearly defined from other services as mentioned.

      On the subject of uniforms the quality of the current No 1 jackets is crap with the collars being to big to be covered by the blue jean collar.

      And get back small NS capbadges, to many folks going around with their capbadges encroaching on tally bands.
      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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      • #18
        Wondering if the DPM route is partly a reaction to Coveney floating the notion of merging NS & CG activities... they both have uniforms, but one has guns, the other does not.

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        • #19
          Well to answer a few questions.

          It the same kit and pattern in the new different colours and will cost exactly the same as the current army DPM.

          DPM is required on ranges and all land tactical evolution because it's the appropriate rig as per standing orders.

          The sight of naval pers on land based evolutions in bastard rig infuriates me.

          The negative attitude towards a simple item such as DPM harks back to the bad old days of " d' navy".

          Some of the pictures of the shambles of crews that turned up to kinsale and kilworth almost proud that they looked like pirates as opposed to service men. Thank Christ those days are well past.

          DPM is issued during recruit training because they spend massive amounts of time doing physical activity of a land based military nature.

          Working Dress is not an appropriate rig for hauling logs around curraghbinny woods not would it be any good for the 10km forced march back.

          Christ only knows what you'd look like after get scratch on the first night of kilworth tactical phase.

          Has anyone here ever done hours of battle PT at night in snowfall in working dress? I will safely guess no.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by The real Jack View Post
            Then why don't they just use DPMs or get dpms made in plain navy fabric instead of a pointless corporate camo that is only for brand identity. Still needing to have dpms for ranges and shore duties just reinforces the money waste of having "naval DPM".
            NS can show the rest of the DF a thing or two about Brand identity, more of a good news story then bad.

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            • #21
              I'd imagine "printing" navel DPM is no more expensive than printing DPM in green/Brown/Black, as long as the numbers are large enough.I was shown some machinery in a plant in the far east last year where various flavours of Chino style pants were being made, the die was unique to the various brands, ie Hilfiger, dockers,Hugo boss etc, and in each case the material was slightly different, but the process was the same using different pantone for the dye.So as a result the costs were similar.

              Where I'd imagine the problem would lie is in the design, ie would the army uniform provide too much scope for snagging in an environment with lots of metal sticky outty bits?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Herald View Post
                I'd imagine "printing" navel DPM is no more expensive than printing DPM in green/Brown/Black, as long as the numbers are large enough.I was shown some machinery in a plant in the far east last year where various flavours of Chino style pants were being made, the die was unique to the various brands, ie Hilfiger, dockers,Hugo boss etc, and in each case the material was slightly different, but the process was the same using different pantone for the dye.So as a result the costs were similar.

                Where I'd imagine the problem would lie is in the design, ie would the army uniform provide too much scope for snagging in an environment with lots of metal sticky outty bits?
                It will be a lot more expensive as it would be a limited run!!

                Your going to have design and set up costs
                Then your going to samples done up
                Then your going to have say 40 sets done up for trials

                Then your going to have print enough material to clothe say 1000 people initially and say 50 new enterants annually (plus reclothe let's say 200-300 replacement issues annually).

                What's the problem with the current issue?
                Design / material / quality etc

                Would say a blue version of the standard DPMs suffice? Or do they need to be a different material (eg flame retardant, heavier warmer material, etc)? Or do they need less snag risks (eg pockets, draw strings etc)etc?
                Last edited by DeV; 6 October 2014, 14:44.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by DeV View Post
                  It will be a lot more expensive as it would be a limited run!!
                  Not necessarily. You can break down the manufacturing process into two separate steps - pattern printing and the actual manufacture of the garment. If the only change made was the colours in the DPM then they just need a different base dye and the three other colour dyes, followed by a print run to make sufficient material for the order. Once the material is printed the actual manufacturing process is the exact same as for "green" DPM, just with the addition of appropriately coloured velcro, zips, buttons etc. If anything this is an amazing idea, as it means one supplier for two clothing ranges instead of two.

                  There is still an argument to be made as to if there's a need for naval DPM, however. Plain blue material in the same pattern as DPMs surely would have done the job nicely? The equitation school have plain green versions of DPMs, so it's not like it hasn't been done before.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Barry View Post
                    ...If anything this is an amazing idea, as it means one supplier for two clothing ranges instead of two...
                    while i'm hugely cynical about the requirement for, or wisdom of, a Naval DPM uniform (particularly in the light of the experiences of the RAN and the USN of such, err... ideas..), the 400 ton elephant in the room is that this process shows how easy and cheap a desert/arid pattern DPM uniform would be to produce for overseas environments that warrant it..

                    a new uniform to help sailors remain hidden when they fall in the sea, but soldiers working in the Saharan sun have to wear a dark green suit.. paging MicktheHack...

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                    • #25
                      seems like the common sense gene has been returned to stores for somebody in charge of somewhere

                      DPM material is designed to camouflage personnel in the environment they operate in. lets not forget this important point. so green based DPM is perfectly valid for soldiers on the ground, etc. the same holds for NS personnel on land based courses, duties, etc. the Glen doesn't change colours just because some sluggies rock up in blue DPMs. Cemetary Hill will still be green!!

                      the other side of the coin is where the NS personnel operate ship board they don't need DPM. blue based DPM will only be effective in the sea or maybe onboard. however, on their own vessels they don't need camoulflage! and they have appropriate kit for boardings, etc.

                      the whole idea seems like somebody is jumping on the "corporate image" bandwagon like USN and RAN. and both both ideas have been found somewhat wanting! there are other better ways to promote the NS "brand" if needs be.

                      however, all that being said Ropebag makes the valid point about lack of availability of desert DPM where appropriate. too warry? we've all heard the stories of making overseas troops identifiable as Irish peacekeepers. personally, i'd rather blend in with my surroundings overseas and not have a bloody great Tricolour all over everything I wear.

                      another valid point is the NS does without a doubt need a suitable, fit for purpose onboard uniform. fire retardant, not snaggy, comfortable, etc. however, I doubt current combats are the answer, whatever colour the material is. Cav crews have their own suits for inside vehicles. maybe something more like that or a flight suit style might be more fit for purpose onboard??
                      Last edited by X-RayOne; 6 October 2014, 16:10.
                      An army is power. Its entire purpose is to coerce others. This power can not be used carelessly or recklessly. This power can do great harm. We have seen more suffering than any man should ever see, and if there is going to be an end to it, it must be an end that justifies the cost. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by DeV View Post
                        It will be a lot more expensive as it would be a limited run!!

                        Would say a blue version of the standard DPMs suffice? Or do they need to be a different material (eg flame retardant, heavier warmer material, etc)? Or do they need less snag risks (eg pockets, draw strings etc)etc?
                        From what I saw, the costs are not at all as great as you'ld think, Although I wasn't very much interested in the clothes production process per se, (we were there to see Machine 2 Machine in action) The plant manager made a great play out of how quickly, cheaply and easily they could change Material, design and colour. So I'd imagine were the new uniform to be a Blue-Black-Grey version of the DF DPM, then I'd see no problem.
                        What you are forgetting is that they already buy a blue uniform in the numbers you outlined and replacements etc.

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                        • #27
                          The sight of naval pers on land based evolutions in bastard rig infuriates me.
                          Had an granduncle who is rolling in his grave at the sounds of that term, we should have had Navy coloured Combats from day one for duties, escorts ranges etc. Never mind the colour, the quality of what we had was shite

                          Last edited by hptmurphy; 6 October 2014, 17:36.
                          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                          • #28
                            Lads at the end of the day its the personnel in the NS that are going to be wearing it, not ye!. As long as its comfortable to wear, not too heavy for the summer and not too light for the winter then who cares what it looks like.
                            Id imagine it will hide, paint, grease, oil stains better than the navy fatiques, so if it does its already more cost effective.

                            The NS is trying to drag itself into the future, go with it!!!

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                            • #29
                              Sorry but I strongly disagree.This is some senior officers pet vanity project.Nothing more.More about corporate identity than tactical effectiveness.Issue army DPM to NS pers who need them.Issue a plain Navy version for duties etc and improve the quality of the GDR if neccessary but spending money on a needless item when others in the DF can't even get boots or a proper shirt(and they are daily wear items not occasional, like the proposed items would be) is a disgrace.
                              "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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                              • #30
                                I work in manufacturing, trust me everything you do that makes a manufacturing process different by increasing range/customisation, increases the unit cost and quality issues.

                                Again (ignoring the naval DPM issue), it depends on why a new design and/or material (as in what it is made of, not what colour(s) it is.

                                "Corporate identity"? (Let's say they just got carbon copies of the DPM but in blue) Well it blue not camouflage, says "Irish Defence Forces" (you could put INS/Navy on it - either instead of the IDF or like the boarding kit). Put a few reflective bits on if you want

                                Is desert DPM required if your driving a white/green vehicle or wearing a blue helmet cover & body armour?

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