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Thread: Naval DPM

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post

    If the point is to make it unique, eh it still would be if it was blue!


    http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com...8&d=1306078330
    But that's just it, the current uniform is not unique, and no variation of blue will be.
    It is the same uniform as worn by firemen, customs, coast guard, some scout troops, some courier companies, and any service provider who decide to go with the Portwest blue option when choosing workwear for its staff.
    http://www.imagerepository.org/broch.../en/index.html

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  3. #52
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    This would suit.
    Time for another break I think......

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  5. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    But that's just it, the current uniform is not unique, and no variation of blue will be.
    It is the same uniform as worn by firemen, customs, coast guard, some scout troops, some courier companies
    In fairness, if you drive up and have Sam Beckett parked out back you're not going to be mistaken for a fireman or courier
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  7. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    But that's just it, the current uniform is not unique, and no variation of blue will be...
    'corporate identity' is not needed abord ship in the normal working environment, we all know that - because there's no other fcuker around to display this 'corporate identity' to!

    an NS brand is needed when posing for photos on the quayside with €100m worth of crack with every other state agency trying to stick its oar in to get the funding, err.. i mean credit. a simple, and not-deeply-stupid blue/grey/black DPM option is to simply to sew four, eight inch high letters in white fabric onto the front of the body armour spelling out the word 'NAVY'...

    if the NS needs a practical working uniform then by all means buy the RN's Blue PCS working uniform, but don't go down the USN and RAN's idiot route of an expensive, naval DPM uniform that costs a fortune and spends its life being ridiculed - not to mention modified, expensively, because the idea of having people wearing camouflaged gear inside the machinery spaces of a darkened ship turns out to be as dumb as fcuking pork.

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  9. #55
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mooman View Post
    A NS pattern DPM is not required and would be a waste of money (our money!).
    You're getting way too hung up on the DPM side of things!! The Naval service needs new uniforms...the current pants especially are utter cat. Most lads commenting here including yourself, I assume, have no idea what life at sea is like, the daily routine or the work done. Try getting through a month patrol with only 2 uniforms working 16-17 hour days it's so far removed from the army it's a waste of time comparing the two...1 patrol and your gear is in a sh*theap, then they expect you to get a year out of them!! I couldn't care less if they decide on pink DPM with tinsel around the edges to be honest, as long as my ass isn't hanging out of my pants after a month!!
    I've said a number of times if the NS kit isn't up to the job it should be replaced
    It is the Naval DPM suggestion I am against

    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    But that's just it, the current uniform is not unique, and no variation of blue will be.
    It is the same uniform as worn by firemen, customs, coast guard, some scout troops, some courier companies, and any service provider who decide to go with the Portwest blue option when choosing workwear for its staff.
    http://www.imagerepository.org/broch.../en/index.html
    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    'corporate identity' is not needed abord ship in the normal working environment, we all know that - because there's no other fcuker around to display this 'corporate identity' to!

    an NS brand is needed when posing for photos on the quayside with €100m worth of crack with every other state agency trying to stick its oar in to get the funding, err.. i mean credit. a simple, and not-deeply-stupid blue/grey/black DPM option is to simply to sew four, eight inch high letters in white fabric onto the front of the body armour spelling out the word 'NAVY'...

    if the NS needs a practical working uniform then by all means buy the RN's Blue PCS working uniform, but don't go down the USN and RAN's idiot route of an expensive, naval DPM uniform that costs a fortune and spends its life being ridiculed - not to mention modified, expensively, because the idea of having people wearing camouflaged gear inside the machinery spaces of a darkened ship turns out to be as dumb as fcuking pork.
    I do see the point about branding which is why I suggested the IDF/INS branding, the high vis Navy like the boarding treams wear, the reflective parts to the uniform.

    You could get it in black, blue or grey.

    You could have the big tricolour on the sleeves, you put your branch/unit flash on the other arm with Velcro, you have a beret/suitably branded hat on, etc

    You could say the same about the white shirt and suit for NS officers and SNCOs as No1s.
    Last edited by DeV; 7th October 2014 at 12:08.

  10. #56
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    So the navy need new togs.
    Has to be done? Right so.
    The idea of DPM is completely negated by having it in colours that will stick out anywhere except on a floating body, but might make financial sense (only) if all that is being done is to insert a new set of colours onto the existing pattern which is printed on the existing material, AND if it is not cheaper to simply dye a batch into plain blue/navy/grey/whateveryerhaving. In that case, job done and who cares?

    If you need a different cloth from what the army have, then adding DPM in shades of blue is just vanity. For The George. But in terms of cost, probably a tiny addition to ordering the new cloth in the first place. Silly, avoidable, but not going to break the bank. And probably no more expensive than sourcing great big INS/NAVY badges to stick on the damned things.
    As for batch runs...I predict an increase in naval service numbers in the next few years.
    Last edited by expat01; 7th October 2014 at 15:57.

  11. #57
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    Would really like to see the design of the new Navy DPM, I really hope they get it right. Strictly copying the army but with navy colour might look terrible. A new modern uniform for the navy is essential though.

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  13. #58
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Boarding suit?

    A boarding suit as you call it is a drysuit. Under it is worn a onesie, known as a wolly bear. If you try catching lines and hauling ropes in that kit heat exhaustion will have you on your back in minutes.
    My bad.Not having had the privelge to serve in both green and blue branches of our fine DF I referred to the item by it's generic name.However can you show me where I suggested using a boarding suit for deck tasks??I will save you the trouble.I didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by A/TEL View Post
    Lads 2 things:

    1. Its only a proposal, nothing has been decided.

    2. The thinking behind it is to save money long term. i.e. not to be issuing kit out every two mins. This new kit is going to be made to last. The design yes will be a branding as such, but isnt that a good thing in the long run to have commonality with the rest of the DF.
    How is having a bespoke DPM specific to the NS which is only good for wear in certain limited occasions
    A/ going to save money,
    B/ Going increase commonality with the rest of the DF(who won't be wearing it)??

    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    theres the difference, the army go to work to train, the navy go to work to do a specific job, hence the tgear has to be right

    DPM or not!
    We train to carry out our assigned tasks. ATCP/ATCA and PSO are not training.We train to be able to carry out those tasks which we do on a weekly basis.All of which are specific jobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    If the material was considered safe and durable you could even buy off the shelf from someone like Arktis if you wanted.

    Thermal underwear
    White or blue tshirt/dryflow
    Blue shirt with INS, name tab, rank markings etc
    Blue Lightweight norge
    Blue Jumper (maybe) with INS, name, rank etc
    Blue barracks jacket type with INS, name, rank etc
    Look at having a smock or wet gear (Arktis W/P as standard)
    Blue trousers (Arktis W/P as standard)

    As I said previously, if you wanted to you could put reflective strips on the arms and legs and give the option of a high vis "Navy" on the chest/back (like the boarding gear)
    Their was a whole powerpoint presentation on the NS dress around 2012 with the proposed GDR and the various other rigs.The layer system was included along with ALL the other bells and whistles mentioned above.Wasn't there a NS smock on issue circa 2001/2.Very similar to the army smock but in navy.What happened to that item for duties etc??
    Quote Originally Posted by mooman View Post
    A NS pattern DPM is not required and would be a waste of money (our money!).
    You're getting way too hung up on the DPM side of things!! The Naval service needs new uniforms...the current pants especially are utter cat. Most lads commenting here including yourself, I assume, have no idea what life at sea is like, the daily routine or the work done. Try getting through a month patrol with only 2 uniforms working 16-17 hour days it's so far removed from the army it's a waste of time comparing the two...1 patrol and your gear is in a sh*theap, then they expect you to get a year out of them!! I couldn't care less if they decide on pink DPM with tinsel around the edges to be honest, as long as my ass isn't hanging out of my pants after a month!!
    100% agree.By all means increase the quality,durability and scale of issue if neccessary.But a bespoke DPM that serves no purpose other than corporate identity??
    Waste of money.Simple as.

    BTW: I am starting to believe this is all a ballhop as their is no tender for such anywhere on E tenders.
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  15. #59
    The Auld Fella A/TEL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    My bad.Not having had the privelge to serve in both green and blue branches of our fine DF I referred to the item by it's generic name.However can you show me where I suggested using a boarding suit for deck tasks??I will save you the trouble.I didn't.


    How is having a bespoke DPM specific to the NS which is only good for wear in certain limited occasions
    A/ going to save money,
    B/ Going increase commonality with the rest of the DF(who won't be wearing it)??


    We train to carry out our assigned tasks. ATCP/ATCA and PSO are not training.We train to be able to carry out those tasks which we do on a weekly basis.All of which are specific jobs.


    Their was a whole powerpoint presentation on the NS dress around 2012 with the proposed GDR and the various other rigs.The layer system was included along with ALL the other bells and whistles mentioned above.Wasn't there a NS smock on issue circa 2001/2.Very similar to the army smock but in navy.What happened to that item for duties etc??


    100% agree.By all means increase the quality,durability and scale of issue if neccessary.But a bespoke DPM that serves no purpose other than corporate identity??
    Waste of money.Simple as.

    BTW: I am starting to believe this is all a ballhop as their is no tender for such anywhere on E tenders.
    Personnel who work in the base on their rotation in, personnel on duty, on their normal days work whilst the ship is on self maintainance, personnel on board ship on non boarding ops will all wear this kit. So it will be worn 85-90% of the time by most of the NS.

    The only time it wont be worn is for the small amout of personnel on a boarding op wearing a drysuit.


    There is no tender because it is only a proposal at the moment. If it does come about its 2016 before it can be ordered. Contract already in place till then for current kit. Will not be a waste of money if the cost is the same. There is no extra money for the clothing budget like everything else.

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  17. #60
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    We train to carry out our assigned tasks. ATCP/ATCA and PSO are not training.We train to be able to carry out those tasks which we do on a weekly basis.All of which are specific jobs.
    So 95% of the army are involved in all of these tasks , all of the time???? Don't think so.

    You train, you carry out your ATCP/ATCA tasks, you go home.....

    PSO tasks, you then enter in to the realm of doing the job you train for...and live that role.

    Thats what ships crews do for all the time posted to a ship..normally a two year stint.For that time that ships depends on its crew as much as they depend on it and that can be dirty dangerous work. The gear needed needs to be appropriate. Again not sure about DPM, but the NS shouldn't have to take a bake seat to d'army when it comes to its kit requirements.
    Time for another break I think......

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  19. #61
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    So are the RDF getting black berets also?

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  21. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post

    How is having a bespoke DPM specific to the NS which is only good for wear in certain limited occasions
    A/ going to save money,
    I would have said that the very idea of the Naval Service using kit based on something already in service means it will be the very opposite of bespoke. It probably even bypasses the requirement for tender if all it's just more of the same with a dye change in the production process.

    It's probably a hell of a lot more cost effective than buying something you could actually categorise as bespoke and lacking in the economy of scale that buying something based on what the wider DF wears.

    Regarding the corporate identity thing, the NS have certainly been the most adept of the three branches at so doing in recent years. Obviously the cammo pattern serves no actual purpose but it will certainly not cost any more than putting a tender to the market and buying something completely different to the wider DF.

  22. #63
    Rittmeister Herald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    So are the RDF getting black berets also?
    DPM Beret.

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  24. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjock View Post
    Regarding the corporate identity thing, the NS have certainly been the most adept of the three branches at so doing in recent years. Obviously the cammo pattern serves no actual purpose but it will certainly not cost any more than putting a tender to the market and buying something completely different to the wider DF.
    It depends, multiple colours is going to be more expensive than a single colour no matter what the contract

    It also depends on if the design (garment not material) is standard (ie the same as the army)

    However, if a single contract is placed for all DF "W/D"/"combats" requirements the unit price should be cheaper

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  26. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herald View Post
    DPM Beret.
    Well the RDF is getting harder to see

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  28. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    It depends, multiple colours is going to be more expensive than a single colour no matter what the contract

    It also depends on if the design (garment not material) is standard (ie the same as the army)

    However, if a single contract is placed for all DF "W/D"/"combats" requirements the unit price should be cheaper
    Maybe the new uniform will not be selected until the current clothing contract has expired? A few pilot trials in the meantime?
    In that case the argument against navy pattern DPM is no different to someone saying everyone in the DF should wear the same uniform....

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  30. #67
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Bear in mind the environment, lad in d'army reports for work at 0830 finishes at 1700 goes home and changes or just goes home having carried out his days work, which is far from the guy who pulls on the blue gear and is gone for 3 weeks and his employment is not as straightforward as that guy in bks. Given the environment the Navy guy works he has many other things to consider other than how he looks. He works in a dangerous environment, he needs that kit which is most suited to the job. DPM or otherwise its a different ball game to the army.
    Much as I recognise your service with the NS and your obvious pride with such and your previous reserve Cav experience you are starting to turn this debate about the need for a NS specific DPM uniform which serves no purpose into another "Army picks on NS" pissing contest by dismissing out of hand the jobs the Army do as being somehow less dangerous,more straightforward and somehow alot more cushy than what the poor old sea dogs have to put up with.You also claim They need the kit most suited to the job.
    Well so do the Army.Kit which is in short supply at the moment due to shortages and cutbacks.Not gucci kit,but the basics.Now, not all army jobs allow you to go home every night,many involve being away from home working in rough terrain in all weathers,at all times of the day and night and in some very dangerous environments..Please don;t forget that.The NS doesn't have the market cornered on dangerous and shitty.

    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    theres the difference, the army go to work to train, the navy go to work to do a specific job, hence the tgear has to be right

    DPM or not!
    Again.Not the case with regard to the army. ATCP/ATCA is not training and you don't always get to go home off every ATCP OP.Two prime examples being Portlaoise and Shannon security but I am sure their are more across the Army.

    So 95% of the army are involved in all of these tasks , all of the time???? Don't think so.
    Never said they did.Same point back at ya regarding the NS.
    You train, you carry out your ATCP/ATCA tasks, you go home.....
    Incorrect.And unless you are at sea or on duty in the base what do the NS do?Train and prepare to go to sea and go home.
    PSO tasks, you then enter in to the realm of doing the job you train for...and live that role.
    The army trains for more than just PSO and we live those roles far more than our PSO ones unless you are doing back to backs.

    Thats what ships crews do for all the time posted to a ship..normally a two year stint.For that time that ships depends on its crew as much as they depend on it and that can be dirty dangerous work. The gear needed needs to be appropriate. Again not sure about DPM, but the NS shouldn't have to take a bake seat to d'army when it comes to its kit requirements.
    Agree with all your points except the last one.Yes the NS should take a back seat if they are suggesting wasting money on a completely unneccessary vanity project when a simpler solution would suffice IE: Improve the quality,properties and issue scale of the current items and maybe add a smock(P.S Nobody has told us what happened to the NS smock that I mentioned above)when their comrades in the Army are having to do their jobs in worn out kit or spend their own money just to have the basics IE boots.No more so than if the shoe was on the other foot and the army was ordering for example a whole new DPM pattern just for corporate identity when their existing pattern was fine and the NS or AC were going around in worn out kit etc etc.
    Last edited by apod; 8th October 2014 at 03:11.
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    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  32. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
    For all you military anoraks:

    Apparently Naval DPM will replace working dress come January!

    The exact same kit and design as the current DPM but in Black, Dark Grey and Light Grey.

    As well as a decent working boot!

    Looking forwards to it personally what do you all think?
    Sounds like your going down the Royal Australian Navy road (or should that be sea lane?) with the DPM.

    Bit bonkers I think, no issues with a uniform that's fit for purpose, that's a necessity and goes without saying, but DPM? Cant see the point myself.

    If there was a mob in the DF that should be running about in green and DPM its the AC. That's a whole other story and part of a much wider discussion. An organisation the size of the DF with a tri service structure with one of those services being no bigger than a infantry battalion +. Re-role and re-title to Army Air Corps, becomes just another army corps, same as artillery, infantry, cavalry,,,,,. After all 90% of their tasks could be classed as army cooperation. Make them army, simples.

    Anyway, DPM for the Navy, interesting, if you like it hope you get it, just think its a bit bonkers is all.
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  34. #69
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    Mind you, looking at those pictures I can see the point about getting oil and grease and general crap on it and it not showing up (or looking any worse, anyway)...
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
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    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
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    Let me preface this post with the admission that I have the height of admiration for the NS - every time they leave harbour they are operational and the risks faced by being at sea in a Force 8 are very real and very immediate. But lets be honest here - NS Blue/grey DPM is about looking good , there's no tactical or operational justification for a camouflage pattern that allows the wearer to merge in with the sea ! No navy these days paints their ships in disruptive pattern to the best of my knowledge. That went out with WWII.

    That being said every decent soldier/sailor/airman wants to look good - jildy is a state of mind as much as an RSM imposed appearance. Those of us who wore boring 1980's pattern uniform green combats envy those who got to wear DPM - it looks the part and, dare I say it, it's sexy.

    So no complaints about any sailor who wants to look good. However what will have to be given up to afford this new kit ? What number of patrol days, new flotation devices, ammunition for the ranges etc will be given up in pursuit of looking good ?
    “The nation that will insist on drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking done by cowards.”
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  38. #71
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Much as I recognise your service with the NS and your obvious pride with such and your previous reserve Cav experience you are starting to turn this debate about the need for a NS specific DPM uniform which serves no purpose into another "Army picks on NS" pissing contest by dismissing out of hand the jobs the Army do as being somehow less dangerous,more straightforward and somehow alot more cushy than what the poor old sea dogs have to put up with.You also claim They need the kit most suited to the job.
    Well so do the Army.Kit which is in short supply at the moment due to shortages and cutbacks.Not gucci kit,but the basics.Now, not all army jobs allow you to go home every night,many involve being away from home working in rough terrain in all weathers,at all times of the day and night and in some very dangerous environments..Please don;t forget that.The NS doesn't have the market cornered on dangerous and shitty.
    Appreciate that, my point being the roles and jobs although all under the banner of the DF are worlds apart. There isn't a comparrsion to be made and thus equating that which the Army get and how it used can't be equated to the rig the NS get and how they use it.

    I'm not into pissing matches about who does what and how, but highlight the difference in roles that may not be readily evident to those who don't have an insight to what goes on where.
    Its been an age since I served at sea and the job has changed significantly in the mean time, increased in intensity, and thus if what were using back then wasn't sufficent and how the rig is not far removed from what it was, it does need replacing.

    I'm glad someone highlighted the change in gear for guys working in Armour, something I bleated on about since the introduction of the current smocks, now transfer that specific requirement to a whole branch of the DF, the NS and see how trivial it might seem to the outsider, but important to the end user.
    I never agreed with the notion of the NS using DPM gear in normal activities, the green stuff that is.

    Yes the NS should take a back seat if they are suggesting wasting money on a completely unneccessary vanity project when a simpler solution would suffice IE: Improve the quality,properties and issue scale of the current items and maybe add a smoc
    But we from what we have been told the current kit is not what it should or could be and does require a replacement, if that happens to be in a DPM format at a negligble cost , based on those who know the industries costings, so what, let it be?

    The Army has been just as guilty at buying rubbish kit in the past, down to the point where there are now mulitiple dress uniforms in service for various parts of the DF, and for no other reason than PR.

    And unless you are at sea or on duty in the base what do the NS do?Train and prepare to go to sea and go home.
    My point being percentage wise that more of the NS are deployed at sea than the Army would have overseas and as a result the wear and tear on kit often exceeds the scale of issue deping on the job you do. I would offer that reducing the new issues to guys going overseas is ridiculous for the same reasons persons onboard ship need more and better kit.
    Time for another break I think......

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    Wow that's a hell of a lot of argie bargy.

    I've been at sea for a bit so I couldn't respond.

    So great points raised and some not so great.

    I could like to agree to disagree with the nay sayers, if you don't like naval DPM wait till they submit the plans for the redesigned SD1 uniform for other ranks in the INS.

    I would also like to throw a little ragged spray on the honkie/sea hag pissing contest.

    Chill the feck out lads, our brethren in the army do a hard, dirty and demanding job.
    Admittedly they do so without any class or style but they do a professional job in the face of ignorance and adversity.


    However the army of 2014 bears no relation to the army of 1990 in terms of kit, equipment, physical training or operational demands. It has evolve far beyond the fat dads army stereotypes.


    As has the INS, no one who hasn't served since the very late 90's early 00's has a true appreciation of the quantum leap in professionalism, operational capacity and operational tempo of the current flotilla.

    A four week patrol of the INS could only be more intense if you started throwing shells at them.

    The shambolic practices such as the image show prior are not a reflection of what the INS are, I often wonder how people are strangely proud that the service used to be a chaotic alcohol soaked mess.

    Roll on new clothing I say, roll on new ships, roll on a expanded DF (fingers crossed white paper)

    And be ever vigilante of any desire to revel in the "old days", time marches on and waits for no-one.

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  41. #73
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  43. #74
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    FFS. So they are getting rid of a uniform, which - as the article said - "did not reduce the number of uniforms" - and are replacing it with another uniform. From my understanding, they are going back to the previous woodland camouflage used across the US forces for decades. Which is NOT in service elsewhere now, hence further expense. Sounds like the US Army's ACU debacle. Going through Atlanta Airport, I saw US Army personnel transiting in a mix of uniforms - ACU and Multicam. And that was just the Army. The Marines have Marpat
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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    Any news on the roll out of Irnavpat??

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