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  • #31
    Originally posted by DeV View Post
    ...Is desert DPM required if your driving a white/green vehicle or wearing a blue helmet cover & body armour?
    if nothing else, someone wearing a sand/brown/olive coloured uniform would be a damn sight cooler than the person standing next to them in a dark green and dark brown uniform.

    closely followed by the rather obvious fact that a blue helmet cover can be replaced by a sand/brown/olive helmet cover in about 30 seconds flat, should the need arise. you will also notice that there are several missions Irish troops are currently engaged in in desert/arid environments but where blue helmet covers and blue BA covers are not being worn...

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    • #32
      Originally posted by DeV View Post
      I work in manufacturing, trust me everything you do that makes a manufacturing process different by increasing range/customisation, increases the unit cost and quality issues.

      Again (ignoring the naval DPM issue), it depends on why a new design and/or material (as in what it is made of, not what colour(s) it is.

      "Corporate identity"? (Let's say they just got carbon copies of the DPM but in blue) Well it blue not camouflage, says "Irish Defence Forces" (you could put INS/Navy on it - either instead of the IDF or like the boarding kit). Put a few reflective bits on if you want

      Is desert DPM required if your driving a white/green vehicle or wearing a blue helmet cover & body armour?
      I can't speak for other missions but there was times in Chad when we weren't operating with the blue overalls and trying to keep a very low profile. Desert DPMs would've come in handy that particular time.

      Bottom line Naval DPM serves no function except for the 'Cool to look at factor' As for the justification that you need DPM to operate in port/on ranges (Can't believe that was actually used as a reason to justify DPM's)/boarding party blue DPM will make you stand out a mile. Might as well be flat blue/black/grey uniforms.
      To close with and kill the enemy in all weather conditions, night and day and over any terrain

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      • #33
        Originally posted by DeV View Post
        I work in manufacturing, trust me everything you do that makes a manufacturing process different by increasing range/customisation, increases the unit cost and quality issues.
        I also work in manufacturing. If the unit production cost increases more than a couple of percent due to a dye change (not any change in printing or pattern) then the manufacturer needs to have a long, hard look at themselves, and read a few books about lean manufacturing. I'd venture that they wouldn't even be in business if it wasn't a trivial concern. Bear in mind that they're not making DPMs all the time, but they run off batches as contracted. This isn't shutting down a line to change the product, it's adding some variety into existing batches.

        And ropebag is right - the exact same arguments apply to desert DPMs. There's no realistic manufacturing excuse for not having them.

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        • #34
          I think many here are missing the point. Looking at photos today of crew wearing the current working dress, it is identical to the old o/g working dress, for those of you old enough to remember it, in Navy Blue.
          If the Army decided in 2001 it was no longer fit for purpose, replacing it with the dpm and its layered system, why did the same not apply to the Naval service?
          A navy smock was introduced, but the rest remained apparently unchanged.
          Aboard ship uniforms need to be, washable, flame and melt retardant and not liable to snag. If ordering uniforms for 1000+ then why not do so in an individual colour too?
          I'm sure somewhere there is a tender document detailing the cut and colour of these new uniforms. Anyone?
          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Barry View Post
            I also work in manufacturing. If the unit production cost increases more than a couple of percent due to a dye change (not any change in printing or pattern) then the manufacturer needs to have a long, hard look at themselves, and read a few books about lean manufacturing. I'd venture that they wouldn't even be in business if it wasn't a trivial concern. Bear in mind that they're not making DPMs all the time, but they run off batches as contracted. This isn't shutting down a line to change the product, it's adding some variety into existing batches.

            And ropebag is right - the exact same arguments apply to desert DPMs. There's no realistic manufacturing excuse for not having them.
            With most of the overseas rotations being in either the middle east or Africa, I'd imagine the reason for not issuing D/DPM was that over 3/4 years probably 70/80% of personnel would in effect be issued with a second set of DPM, and somebody baulked at the idea/cost.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Herald View Post
              With most of the overseas rotations being in either the middle east or Africa, I'd imagine the reason for not issuing D/DPM was that over 3/4 years probably 70/80% of personnel would in effect be issued with a second set of DPM, and somebody baulked at the idea/cost.
              aren't they already issued with a lightweight set for such jobs anyway?

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Herald View Post
                From what I saw, the costs are not at all as great as you'ld think, Although I wasn't very much interested in the clothes production process per se, (we were there to see Machine 2 Machine in action) The plant manager made a great play out of how quickly, cheaply and easily they could change Material, design and colour. So I'd imagine were the new uniform to be a Blue-Black-Grey version of the DF DPM, then I'd see no problem.
                What you are forgetting is that they already buy a blue uniform in the numbers you outlined and replacements etc.
                Cheaply in comparison to?
                They may be able to make the garment for the same price but it is the material that will be more expensive
                The design costs
                The storage & associated supply chain costs
                Etc

                Originally posted by A/TEL View Post
                Lads at the end of the day its the personnel in the NS that are going to be wearing it, not ye!. As long as its comfortable to wear, not too heavy for the summer and not too light for the winter then who cares what it looks like.
                Id imagine it will hide, paint, grease, oil stains better than the navy fatiques, so if it does its already more cost effective.

                The NS is trying to drag itself into the future, go with it!!!
                I don't really care what it looks like (it will look sh1t), I care what it costs! (And what else will be cut to pay for it!)

                You could just issue overalls (that aren't worn for parades) same as mechanics.

                Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                if nothing else, someone wearing a sand/brown/olive coloured uniform would be a damn sight cooler than the person standing next to them in a dark green and dark brown uniform.

                closely followed by the rather obvious fact that a blue helmet cover can be replaced by a sand/brown/olive helmet cover in about 30 seconds flat, should the need arise. you will also notice that there are several missions Irish troops are currently engaged in in desert/arid environments but where blue helmet covers and blue BA covers are not being worn...
                True but you can't do the same with a MOWAG

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by DeV View Post
                  ...True but you can't do the same with a MOWAG
                  exactly how long do you think it would take four blokes with rollers and a big tray of brown paint to turn a big white MOWAG into a scruffy brownish thing?

                  perhaps the true lesson here is not to have white vehicles that might need repainting, but to have drab vehicles with easily removable hi-viz UN pannels...

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                  • #39
                    There will we nothing cut to pay for it, the existiting budget will be the same as far as i can gather.

                    The kit will be layered like the Army DPM which will be great as it will cover both shore/sea duties.
                    Nothing like being stuck up on QM in -3 in fatiques with two civvy jackets on to try keep warm....

                    This kit can only be an improvement to what is there already.
                    As i have mentioned already it will hide the usual grease/oil/paint stains better than whats already there.
                    The wearing of overalls for all sea duties is just not possible.

                    This kit is not replacing Army DPM, that will still be worn for ranges/DF courses, career courses (tatical training & battle PT's)

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                    • #40
                      I think many here are missing the point. Looking at photos today of crew wearing the current working dress, it is identical to the old o/g working dress, for those of you old enough to remember it, in Navy Blue.
                      The Army actually copied the NS working dress which had been in itself copied from the RN.

                      hen others in the DF can't even get boots or a proper shirt(and they are daily wear items not occasional, like the proposed items would be) is a disgrace.
                      Bear in mind the environment, lad in d'army reports for work at 0830 finishes at 1700 goes home and changes or just goes home having carried out his days work, which is far from the guy who pulls on the blue gear and is gone for 3 weeks and his employment is not as straightforward as that guy in bks. Given the environment the Navy guy works he has many other things to consider other than how he looks. He works in a dangerous environment, he needs that kit which is most suited to the job. DPM or otherwise its a different ball game to the army.
                      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by DeV View Post
                        Cheaply in comparison to?
                        They may be able to make the garment for the same price but it is the material that will be more expensive
                        The design costs
                        The storage & associated supply chain costs
                        Etc

                        Dev, you have an amazing ability to completely miss the fxxking point.
                        As AG has pointed out above, the Navy has decided to replace working dress thats been on issue for about a million years!!
                        Already, they are buying and replacing that uniform as needs be, that bloody same uniform, and in the numbers that you've pointed out, that cost exists no matter what.
                        If they have decided to provide a uniform based on DPM with a navalised version of the same, then the bloody dye will be minimal(as pointed out to you, by Barry and myself)
                        Originally posted by DeV View Post
                        I don't really care what it looks like (it will look sh1t), I care what it costs! (And what else will be cut to pay for it!)

                        You could just issue overalls (that aren't worn for parades) same as mechanics.
                        You haven't seen it but you know it'll look sh1t? Have you the numbers for the Euromillions?

                        You could just issue them bikinis, look at all the money that you're worried about that you'ld save then?
                        Last edited by Herald; 6 October 2014, 20:59.

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                        • #42
                          Bear in mind the environment, lad in d'army reports for work at 0830 finishes at 1700 goes home and changes or just goes home having carried out his days work, which is far from the guy who pulls on the blue gear and is gone for 3 weeks and his employment is not as straightforward as that guy in bks. Given the environment the Navy guy works he has many other things to consider other than how he looks. He works in a dangerous environment, he needs that kit which is most suited to the job. DPM or otherwise its a different ball game to the army.
                          First of all their is nothing "Straightforward" about day to day tasks in the Army.In one week and even one day you can be on multiple different taskings that require different kits and not all involve going home at 1630.And without wanting to get into a pissing contest the army put themselves in harms way every time they get mounted for an armed duty.If it wasn't considered dangerous they wouldn't need to be armed.
                          Now.My argument stands.Arguing for a gucci uniform based on corporate identity when an already existing uniform would easily suffice when there are lads going on exercise,ITs and Operational duties with holes in the soles of their boots and worn out shirts is a waste of money,a failure of duty of care and portrays a scruffy and ragged appearance on front of johnny taxpayer when in the public eye.
                          Now the proposed GDR covered the layering system and was also flame resistant not to mention a very smart looking uniform.What was wrong with that for normal wear? perhaps with the addition of a navy coloured smock to match?Job done.Layers worn as needed.Smock and whatever counts as fighting order in the NS worn for duties and "securing piers"(Seriously?? You need a bespoke DPM pattern for that).Boarding suit for just that.
                          "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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                          • #43
                            Boarding suit?

                            A boarding suit as you call it is a drysuit. Under it is worn a onesie, known as a wolly bear. If you try catching lines and hauling ropes in that kit heat exhaustion will have you on your back in minutes.
                            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                              Boarding suit?

                              A boarding suit as you call it is a drysuit. Under it is worn a onesie, known as a wolly bear. If you try catching lines and hauling ropes in that kit heat exhaustion will have you on your back in minutes.
                              Well jesus we better buy a whole new clothing system for the entire navy for that one physical activity.....
                              To close with and kill the enemy in all weather conditions, night and day and over any terrain

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by HavocIRL View Post
                                Well jesus we better buy a whole new clothing system for the entire navy for that one physical activity.....
                                Lads 2 things:

                                1. Its only a proposal, nothing has been decided.

                                2. The thinking behind it is to save money long term. i.e. not to be issuing kit out every two mins. This new kit is going to be made to last. The design yes will be a branding as such, but isnt that a good thing in the long run to have commonality with the rest of the DF.

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