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  • I think a lot of it boils down to what we could offer in such a pact - the more useful we are, the bigger the potential discount. Until now, the state seems entirely against the idea of industrial offsets. So what else can we offer?

    The advantages of a pact with the UK are blindingly obvious. Shared areas of responsibility. We could use the same hardware and logistics chains. I still think it should be the first option to explore seriously. (I know the EF is a lot more expensive to operate than the Gripen, but we could offer a lot and I would hope that would bring down costs)

    Anyway, after that inevitably collapses it's Sweden - no NATO, or political baggage - instantly that'll have shut up most people who would have moaned about a UK/Irish pact.

    Question is, what can we offer them? An extensive training area? Maybe an expanded chunk of the Atlantic for testing anti-ship missiles etc? That in turn could be opened up for other Gripen customers to utilise. Maybe be a link between the Swedish/Brazilian developments with the Gripen/KC-390 - Shannon as a logistics hub for the latter? I'm clutching at straws here.

    I'm struggling to work out what we could offer the French. There's overlap in areas of responsibility, but far less than with the UK. And there's the NATO baggage.

    In a deal with the US, it wouldn't be hard to work out what we could offer, but that might be even less palatable to the public than a deal with UK.
    Last edited by pym; 21 October 2015, 14:11.

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    • Originally posted by FMolloy View Post
      If you were looking at making a pact with a foreign country, perhaps France would be more palatable to public consumption.
      Sweden, think of the 'N' word........
      "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
      Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
      Illegitimi non carborundum

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      • for the UK, the gains are in two forms - direct and indirect.

        in direct gains, we benefit from having a secure flank, and that being seamless. if we get flying training areas that would be great, but the UK is pretty big, and we already fly out to St Kilda or the Faroes. training against ground based systems and people we don't get to play with is a bigger benefit.

        the indirect gain is a more secure, even friendlier, state as our next door neighbour. that is the biggest gain.

        there are any number of models you could use to provide capability. if you want it to happen, it could happen.

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        • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
          for the UK, the gains are in two forms - direct and indirect.

          in direct gains, we benefit from having a secure flank, and that being seamless. if we get flying training areas that would be great, but the UK is pretty big, and we already fly out to St Kilda or the Faroes. training against ground based systems and people we don't get to play with is a bigger benefit.

          the indirect gain is a more secure, even friendlier, state as our next door neighbour. that is the biggest gain.

          there are any number of models you could use to provide capability. if you want it to happen, it could happen.
          You've said it before - if we had and shared a proper primary radar infrastructure on the west coast, that's time and £££ saved for your E-3's right away.

          If we can take care of aircraft in our sector, that's time and £££ saved for your EF's and MRTT's.

          If you know it's just a phonecall before you can roll up in Shannon with P-8 Poseidon's (and support) for a weeks hunting, that's time and £££ saved.

          For us it's a few minutes flying time to LIFT, training infrastructure and experience we can only dream about.

          This is all years off in the future but the groundwork could be done right now in terms of radar infrastructure etc.

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          • Originally posted by morpheus View Post
            I dont understand why we cant retain helis in dublin and place fighters in shannon anyway.
            Goes against the whole ethos of the past decade or so of consolidation and reduction of facilities, etc.

            You would, in effect, double the existing logistics and management layers because undoubtedly somebody would insist on a CO for each base, double the guards, fire cover, stores, etc. required in both locations. Also you'd end up with sub units away from their chain of command, etc.

            Better to move it all lock, stock and barrel to one location that provides rationalisation of certain services, fire cover, fueling, longer runway etc. and is big enough to allow expansion of physical facilities, eg. hangers, larger aircraft purchases and so on. Plus you streamline existing structures and practices during the move to allow for a more modern, deployable service.

            the idea of heli's for Dublin is also a bit of a non point. most of the current heli ops are carried out around the tactical training areas, kilworth, curragh, glen, etc. regardless of where the troops are based. if heli's or any other aircraft are needed in Dublin they could piggy back IRCG facilities in Dublin airport for the duration.
            An army is power. Its entire purpose is to coerce others. This power can not be used carelessly or recklessly. This power can do great harm. We have seen more suffering than any man should ever see, and if there is going to be an end to it, it must be an end that justifies the cost. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain

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            • it also has the not inconsiderable benefit of putting these precious assets at least an hour away from the grubby mits of those with an off licence to open in a squalid effort to win parish pump votes - err... i mean critical ministerial business to conduct...

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              • Sweden would be more palatable to many ....I personally have no desire to be "useful" in any way to NATO.

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                • Originally posted by Turkey View Post
                  Sweden, think of the 'N' word........
                  The problem the moaners have with NATO is that the US & UK are involved; if you were to offer a bilateral agreement with another NATO power I'd say there'd be less cribbing. We've nothing to offer Sweden, and no overlapping areas of concern so there's no reason for them to get involved.
                  "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

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                  • Originally posted by Galloglass View Post
                    I personally have no desire to be "useful" in any way to NATO.
                    Yeah, we should just do **** all and let them do the job of watching our airspace for us.
                    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

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                    • Originally posted by FMolloy View Post
                      If you were looking at making a pact with a foreign country, perhaps France would be more palatable to public consumption.
                      I can't find a reference, but I'm sure I read somewhere (The Irish Sword, maybe) that a defence pact was talked about between Ireland and France in the '30's, as they were a major European power, had a history of links with Ireland, and above all were not the UK.

                      Anybody able to help?
                      Last edited by Flamingo; 21 October 2015, 22:32.
                      'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
                      'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
                      Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
                      He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
                      http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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                      • Happy release it faded off the scene, would not have liked to rely on it given the Czech experience.

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                        • Originally posted by danno View Post
                          Happy release it faded off the scene, would not have liked to rely on it given the Czech experience.
                          As distinct from the Polish "experience" of having it's borders guaranteed by both France and Britain?

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                          • Just like the US using Shannon during the war in Iraq, if the government decides that a defensive pact with anyone is desirable or necessary, they won't give a toss what the public thinks. It's not an election losing bread and butter matter, and they've forced through more unpopular decisions against huge opposition. The public aren't the barrier. Government interest in the matter is.

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                            • Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
                              I can't find a reference, but I'm sure I read somewhere (The Irish Sword, maybe) that a defence pact was talked about between Ireland and France in the '30's, as they were a major European power, had a history of links with Ireland, and above all were not the UK.

                              Anybody able to help?
                              Read Robert Fisk, in time of war, which devotes a couple of pages to the pact in 1940, it was actually suggested by the British, but quickly shot down. Rumour was that a French general will have been put I. Charge of the defence forced and de Gaulle would have got the job.

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                              • the French are in the Don about once a month so what we currently offer them is a place to go for a few pints under the guise of a navex.....we have had long ties with Sweden because we bought so much kit off them and they also visit for the same reasons as the French .....SNN also has the bonus of full-scale aircraft overhaul facilities and plenty of room to park any large multi-engined aircraft such as tankers, Hercs, C17s,etc,etc.......

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