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  1. #51
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    Where could the savings needed to make room in the DF budget be acheived to cater for the lease,makes the CG helis costs remarkable.

  2. #52
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    If the DF could get €60 million pa for additional capital equipment, Ciara, Orla and Eithne would be replaced over 3 years

    That is 7% of the Defence budget

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  4. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    Where could the savings needed to make room in the DF budget be acheived to cater for the lease,makes the CG helis costs remarkable.
    i recall seeing a quote on here in the last month or so where Coveney actually talked about an increace, in real terms, of the defence budget in the next Dail term.

    now, that could be testicles, or it could be an 'aspiration', it could be €2.20 over 4 years -or, it might, just might, be genuine. and while we might quibble over the efficacy of a 'air force' with just 12 airframes, if a government thought it could say 'we've given you the protection of an air force equipped with modern fighters' for just €70m a year, it might give it serious consideration.

  5. #54
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    As the DF has gotten progressively more efficient year on year (since the last white paper) and comes in consistently under budget, the actual budget has been reduced. The DF needs to take a leaf from the HSE book and start costing more. Go over budget et viola, your budget for next year is increased so you won't go over budget again. Worldwide we see procurement programs go drastically over budget (The USCG is currently paying 1bn per ship getting something that is basically a glorified Eithne). But the money keeps coming. Something else gets cut. Maybe the pony club goes, maybe child benefit to people no longer living in the state gets cut...
    The RN are paying a few billion for 2 Aircraft carriers that will have no aircraft for a number of years, and one of the ships will immediately be mothballed. But it goes ahead because it supports UK industry.
    We need to start thinking outside the box, and learning from our neighbours.

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  7. #55
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    Barter the lease of aircraft for goods manufactured here. meat. butter. software etc, and bingo. DF are supporting Irish industry. ?

  8. #56
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    Tax cuts for multinationals....

    Oh wait...

  9. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    As the DF has gotten progressively more efficient year on year (since the last white paper) and comes in consistently under budget, the actual budget has been reduced. The DF needs to take a leaf from the HSE book and start costing more. Go over budget et viola, your budget for next year is increased so you won't go over budget again. Worldwide we see procurement programs go drastically over budget (The USCG is currently paying 1bn per ship getting something that is basically a glorified Eithne). But the money keeps coming. Something else gets cut. Maybe the pony club goes, maybe child benefit to people no longer living in the state gets cut...
    The RN are paying a few billion for 2 Aircraft carriers that will have no aircraft for a number of years, and one of the ships will immediately be mothballed. But it goes ahead because it supports UK industry.
    We need to start thinking outside the box, and learning from our neighbours.
    Where do you think some of the extra money for the HSE comes from?

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  11. #58
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    Down the back of the couch?

  12. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    down the back of the couch?
    :-d :-d :-d
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

  13. #60
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    Following on from JJ's post, I see the Slovak Defence Minister says they are in negotiations with Sweden about the lease of Gripens. While not the only option for small countries it would seem to be a flexible, relatively reasonably priced method of achieving an air patrol/limited air defence capability.

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  15. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    When the Czech Republic became a NATO member in 1999, the need to replace their existing Soviet-built MiG-21 fleet with aircraft compatible with NATO interoperability standards became apparent. In 2000, the Czech Republic began evaluating a number of aircraft, including the F-16, F/A-18, Mirage 2000, Eurofighter Typhoon and the Gripen. One major procurement condition was the industrial offset agreement, set at 150% of the expected purchase value. In December 2001, having reportedly been swayed by Gripen International's generous financing and offset programme, the Czech Government announced that the Gripen had been selected. In 2002, the deal was delayed until after parliamentary elections had taken place; alternative means of air defense were also studied, including leasing the aircraft.

    On 14 June 2004, it was announced that the Czech Republic was to lease 14 Gripen aircraft, modified to comply with NATO standards.[154] The agreement also included the training of Czech pilots and technicians in Sweden. The first six were delivered on 18 April 2005. The lease was for an agreed period of 10 years at a cost of €780 million; the 14 ex-Swedish Air Force aircraft included 12 single-seaters and two JAS 39D two-seat trainers. In September 2013, the Defence and Security Export Agency announced that a follow-up agreement with the Czech Republic had been completed to extend the lease by 14 years, until 2029; the leased aircraft shall also undergo an extensive modernisation process, including the adoption of new datalinks. The lease also has an option of eventually acquiring the fighters outright. In 2014 the lease was extended to 2027 and the Saab service contract was extended to 2026.

    As of November 2014, the Czech Government considers leasing further six Gripens due to Russia's deteriorating relationship with the West.
    Interesting little tid bit
    What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

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  17. #62
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    Please Please Mr Putin order a fake bombing run on Galway the next time the lads are in the area.
    http://www.businessinsider.com/david...ck-2013-4?IR=T

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  19. #63
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    It would steal the thunder from Salthill Airshow.

  20. #64
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    Does a response/defence to air intrusion always have to be aerial,cannot ground/naval based batteries do the task?

  21. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    Does a response/defence to air intrusion always have to be aerial,cannot ground/naval based batteries do the task?
    Honestly, I don't see how, I think it's a job for a fast jet...
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
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  23. #66
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    Ground and naval based are much more available than an air based deterrent. How many aircraft would be required to maintain 2 fighters on one hour readiness 24/7/365?

  24. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmigs View Post
    Ground and naval based are much more available than an air based deterrent. How many aircraft would be required to maintain 2 fighters on one hour readiness 24/7/365?
    A basic requirement of the air intercept role is the ability to visually identify the suspect aircraft. The vast majority of air intercept events are airliners that have for whatever reason missed radio calls and lost coms with ATC. The usual outcome is to fly alongside, give a little wake up call to the pilots, rule out a hijacking and go on their way.

    For your typical border skirting Russian bomber jaunt in heavily populated civilian airspace what are you going to do with a ground based element, just start blasting away? There are all sorts of reasons why thats a non runner.

    You simply respond the correct way by sending up a greeting party or like now you don't respond at all.

    To maintain two a/c on 24hr 10-15 min QRA (1hr alert would be pointless), a good starting point would be a dozen airframes.

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  26. #68
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    No mention of UK-provided 'air defence cover'
    IRISH AIR CORPS - Serving the Nation.

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  28. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver View Post
    No mention of UK-provided 'air defence cover'
    Largely it's because ts a legal minefield. Who would the raf pilot take orders from is the big issue, his own chain of command or the Irish one. If a shoot down was an option who would give the orders cameron or enda. Important issues that are fine in nato but not here

    That's why in a perfect world our own limited intercept capability beyond pc 9 would be optimal. But in the present economic climate it would not be the first priority.
    Last edited by paul g; 8th February 2015 at 16:09.

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  30. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODIN View Post
    I'd be much more annoyed that the Russians are using us as a sort of side door. I think we should be summoning the Russian representative in Ireland and asking similar questions. This stands to get very out of hand especially with the amount of civilian air traffic that passes our west coast on a daily basis.
    For Gods sake..what planet are you guys on? Endless Shinners/Crusties comments and now Russian Bears in the news (ask yourselves why) Working up the populace for NATO moves in Ukraine perhaps? These flights are routine...NATO does the same thing...In fact the number of these flights has been decreasing over the last few years. Get a grip on yourselves.

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  32. #71
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglass View Post
    For Gods sake..what planet are you guys on? Endless Shinners/Crusties comments and now Russian Bears in the news (ask yourselves why) Working up the populace for NATO moves in Ukraine perhaps? These flights are routine...NATO does the same thing...In fact the number of these flights has been decreasing over the last few years. Get a grip on yourselves.
    In fact nato has done one better and just moved a few countries closer to mother russia!
    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

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  34. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglass View Post
    For Gods sake..what planet are you guys on?...... In fact the number of these flights has been decreasing over the last few years.
    "In fact"...No. What rock have you been hiding under? Intercepts of Russian aircraft have been increasing year on year. Last year the increase was dramatic. Over 50% up, with over 400 intercepts by NATO aircraft in Europe alone. Approaching Cold War leves. Finnish and Swedish aircraft have also been busy. The actions of the pilots have been increasing in belligerence, intentionally flying dangerously close to military aircraft on intercepts or patrols. There have also been near misses with civilian airliner traffic. There have been mock bombing runs on Stockholm. Even the Portuguese have had Russian bomber activity that far south.
    Last edited by Jetjock; 8th February 2015 at 22:01.

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  36. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglass View Post
    For Gods sake..what planet are you guys on? Endless Shinners/Crusties comments and now Russian Bears in the news (ask yourselves why) Working up the populace for NATO moves in Ukraine perhaps? These flights are routine...NATO does the same thing...In fact the number of these flights has been decreasing over the last few years. Get a grip on yourselves.
    I, like galloglass welcome our new soviet overlords.....

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  38. #74
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    Last edited by DeV; 12th February 2015 at 00:18.

  39. #75
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    There is a complete contradiction at play here in that the thesis is that by putting up fast jets the air space will be trespass free,if this were so then why are intrusions still ongoing into the air space of countries who have fast jets.Even in WW2 when the IAC had relatively state of the art fighters the air space was regularly intruded with no interceptions made,indeed standing orders appeared to dictate that IAC avoid contact with intruders.Have to conclude recent intrusion is a complete non event as rent a mob never beset/stormed Russian embassy!!!

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