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  • #31
    Originally posted by Buck View Post
    Well cost for one, sadly. But we are a NATO member by association with the PfP, surely?
    In that case, Russia is also a member NATO

    Originally posted by tomh903 View Post
    a slightly embarrassing episode for Ireland having to rely on the RAF to secure our airspace but I don't think Putin or Russia would give two sh**'s about Ireland in a New Cold War.
    At no time were they in Irish sovereign airspace, they did however pass through Irish-controlled airspace (ie that which the IAA provides services for).

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    • #32
      ropebag - would use of Irish airspace be beneficial to the RAF, in terms of extra training space/opportunities etc?

      Someone has to pay for deployments, or at least there has to be benefits for the people doing the heavy lifting.

      I know I'm the one who brought the Bears into this thread, but I think people are leaping miles ahead of themselves talking about Irish based/or crewed fighter aircraft.

      For the moment, in our neck of the woods at least, the Russians are just acting like petulant teenagers - and given the basic equipment shortfalls in the DF, splashing out on one long range military radar would be extremely difficult to justify, so forget aircraft.

      There's no harm in contingency planning though, familiarisation training, speeding up communications etc. and all that stuff.

      I also take Paul's point that things are going in a fairly inevitable direction, but the potential backlash from moving too fast (Let's put 4 RAF Typhoons in Shannon for a month!) would probably knock co-operation backwards for years.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by tomh903 View Post
        Headline on the Indo today: "Ireland drawn into New Cold War as Putin flexes muscles"

        Bit over the top isn't it? I mean yeah it was a slightly embarrassing episode for Ireland having to rely on the RAF to secure our airspace but I don't think Putin or Russia would give two sh**'s about Ireland in a New Cold War.
        RAF only went up when the bears were heading up St Georges(is one allowed use this nowadays)Channel,the bears could have played all day off our West coast for all anyone cared/confronted.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by pym View Post
          ropebag - would use of Irish airspace be beneficial to the RAF, in terms of extra training space/opportunities etc?...
          yes.

          access to new low flying areas, and just a generally larger airspace to train in, would be beneficial. secondly, exercising with a different 'enemy' (both GBAD and Helicopters and fixed wing), with different kit, different procedures, and different - non-NATO - thinking would be enormously beneficial.

          its also in the UK's interest to be able to push the air battle another 400 miles out over the Atlantic - firstly because it means more time in contested airspace to shoot the buggers down before they can launch, secondly because its more difficult to avoid being seen on radar/IR over the sea than hammering through Irish valleys, and thirdly because the more time they have to fly on a war footing - fast, low, and manouvering - the more fuel they're burning and the more tired they'll be when we finally get to grips with them.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by ropebag View Post
            access to new low flying areas
            Are The Irish People going to be happy With The noise. Back in 09ish There was an RAF/AAC Exercise over Tyrone and Fermanagh I was Home during the time and the noise lasted all night the constant drone of engines. Anyway there was some political opposition to it (Both sides of the fence) As there was no notice to what was going on. There haven't been any exercises since.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Stevo768 View Post
              Are The Irish People going to be happy With The noise. Back in 09ish There was an RAF/AAC Exercise over Tyrone and Fermanagh I was Home during the time and the noise lasted all night the constant drone of engines. Anyway there was some political opposition to it (Both sides of the fence) As there was no notice to what was going on. There haven't been any exercises since.
              That would be the sound of freedom.
              For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
                how close did they come to Irish mainland before they got close to mainland UK?

                might be nice to have a few Typhoons on QRA in Shannon now that we're all chums now
                Hardly merited for turboprop bears that must be 35y+ old and suffering from Nimroditis,biggest risk must be them falling out of the sky .

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by danno View Post
                  Hardly merited for turboprop bears that must be 35y+ old and suffering from Nimroditis,biggest risk must be them falling out of the sky .
                  depends - on the face of it they are just a pain, and reacting to them just feeds Vlads' ego, but these flights are 'pathfinders' for the TU-160 BLACKJACKS, being relaxed about the bears and letting them get on with it sets a big precident that the Russians will be happy to exploit with the blackjacks.

                  moreover, if we let them crack on we give the impression - falsely - that we don't have either the capability or will to confront them. and you know full well what eventually happens when a self-deluding bully is continually allowed to do what he likes. he stops being a pain and he does something much worse.

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                  • #39
                    I think given that gucci aircraft are out of the picture, some decent ground to air capability would be nice. I realise that I'm straying dangerously close to Walter Mitty territory here of course.
                    I knew a simple soldier boy.....
                    Who grinned at life in empty joy,
                    Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
                    And whistled early with the lark.

                    In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
                    With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
                    He put a bullet through his brain.
                    And no one spoke of him again.

                    You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
                    Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
                    Sneak home and pray you'll never know
                    The hell where youth and laughter go.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by danno View Post
                      Hardly merited for turboprop bears that must be 35y+ old and suffering from Nimroditis,biggest risk must be them falling out of the sky .
                      The Russians have never tried to bolt as many new systems on to them as the UK tried with the Nimrods - so no similar problems. USAF B-52's which are even older, will see out their more modern B-1 "replacement".

                      No doubt they're a maintenance hog too, but they can fulfill their mission.

                      What's interesting to me is that Putin's actions have provided the backdrop to Sweden, Finland and Ireland getting more cosy with NATO, or at least making bilateral defense deals with their neighbours.

                      I think if things continue to heat up, there might be a greater push for joint surveillance - in the air and sosus type stuff.

                      But the big variable is whether Vlad & his military will be able to survive the economic turmoil over the next few months and years.

                      And that potential for instability and the possible effects on command & control of their nuclear forces will provide many headaches.
                      Last edited by pym; 1 February 2015, 01:49.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by pym View Post
                        The Russians have never tried to bolt as many new systems on to them as the UK tried with the Nimrods - so no similar problems. USAF B-52's which are even older, will see out their more modern B-1 "replacement".

                        No doubt they're a maintenance hog too, but they can fulfill their mission.

                        What's interesting to me is that Putin's actions have provided the backdrop to Sweden, Finland and Ireland getting more cosy with NATO, or at least making bilateral defense deals with their neighbours.

                        I think if things continue to heat up, there might be a greater push for joint surveillance - in the air and sosus type stuff.

                        But the big variable is whether Vlad & his military will be able to survive the economic turmoil over the next few months and years.

                        And that potential for instability and the possible effects on command & control of their nuclear forces will provide many headaches
                        Sounds just like a Tom Clancy page turner !
                        "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          TU 95 Bears and Irish Air space.

                          Can anyone shed any light on the two TU 95 Bears that were in Irish air space this weekend? They were being monitiored by RAF Typhoons, and I was wondering what the Irish Air Corps was doing? Defense Minister Coveney stated that "Russian military aircraft should not enter Irish airspace without notification". However what is to stop them? Is there an agreement between Britain and Ireland regarding air defense? Furthermore, does this incident support the idea to purchase modern fighter aircraft to defend Irish sovereignty?

                          Thanks

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Buck View Post
                            I think given that gucci aircraft are out of the picture, some decent ground to air capability would be nice. I realise that I'm straying dangerously close to Walter Mitty territory here of course.
                            Cheapest possible counter would be upgrade to radar/FC and 76 capability to P50s/60s,bound to be 2-3 on patrol at any given time and be able to "tone" intruders within their electonic horizon.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by danno View Post
                              Hardly merited for turboprop bears that must be 35y+ old and suffering from Nimroditis,biggest risk must be them falling out of the sky .
                              While it is an old design, most of the aircraft in regular use are actually new airframes, build in the late 90s. They pose no risk to us, other than them falling out of the sky. Being lit up by long range AA Radar would focus their minds somewhat though.
                              I do remember hearing of a Harrier Pilot off Donegal getting a bit worried when Eithne's Air Search radar started interrogating him, and her crew being entertained by his efforts to break lock.... (Authenticity of story not guaranteed)
                              For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by pym View Post
                                The Russians have never tried to bolt as many new systems on to them as the UK tried with the Nimrods - so no similar problems. USAF B-52's which are even older, will see out their more modern B-1 "replacement".

                                No doubt they're a maintenance hog too, but they can fulfill their mission.

                                What's interesting to me is that Putin's actions have provided the backdrop to Sweden, Finland and Ireland getting more cosy with NATO, or at least making bilateral defense deals with their neighbours.

                                I think if things continue to heat up, there might be a greater push for joint surveillance - in the air and sosus type stuff.

                                But the big variable is whether Vlad & his military will be able to survive the economic turmoil over the next few months and years.

                                And that potential for instability and the possible effects on command & control of their nuclear forces will provide many headaches.
                                Not only will Putin survive he’ll prosper by escalating the crisis in the Ukraine and starting trouble elsewhere in his near abroad. He’ll also try and play the Greeks, possibly by giving them just enough money so that they can continue to defy the rest of the EU in the hope that Syzria will lead to similar governments in Spain and Italy and cause chaos in the EU. It’s almost as if he worked for the KGB at one stage.

                                Which brings us back to the Tu-95, and what to do? The problem is that we are geographically isolated and protected by NATO powers, and spendingon defence to replicate NATO spending would be sa waste of money. Looking at the mission at the weekend the Tu 95 were first intercepted by the Norwegian air force that then passed them over to the British, flying from lossiemouth. In real conflict they’d be shot from the sky long before they got anyway near our west coast. NATO has a technological and geographic edge over the Russians that simply can’t be bridged. The Russians can’t get away from the fact that in a real war, radar and interceptor bases in Norway, Scotland and Iceland form a barrier that they simply can’t breach, the GIUK gap in professional parlance (which I’ll come back to).

                                Secondly the cost of acquiring and operating interceptors are horrendous, and they add very little value in our situation, just google Austria and Typhoon Fighter, they have 15 of them but can afford to fly them so rarely that they have an expected life of nearly a century, they can’t afford the sophisticated weapon, only have 12 pilots and are desperate to get out of the deal. There are also massive issues surrounding bribery. More importantly the acquisition of Eurofighters have stopped the Austrian armed forces restructuring, helped by a looney left who won a referendum to retain conscription because they argued that it would stop people doing the civilian alternative. Fighters would hover up money from the defence budget and would add nothing in an actual conflict against Russia.
                                Going back to the Russians they’ve long since worked out that they can’t breach the GIUK gap, they couldn’t do it in the Cold war they can’t do it now. What they can do is use hybrid warfare and exploit ethnic and political tensions in neighbouring countries, look at Georgia in 2008 and the Ukraine from 2014 onwards. For those of us who read books, its exactly the same thing the Russians did in 1878 when they detached Bulgaria from the Ottoman Empire. And the Russians are also helped with a left, especially in Ireland that is vehemently anti American and as a result ignore the fact that Putin is a really nasty cnut, who has looted his country of its natural resources and enriched a small minority, who essentially control everybody else.

                                Essentially, a much better investment for the air corps would be to build on what we have and develop the ability to deploy a maritime patrol aircraft overseas on joint missions or three to four helicopters to support a battalion ala chad, and the army can work with european powers on peace support missions in Africa the midddle east and Balkans
                                Last edited by paul g; 1 February 2015, 23:44.

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