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  1. #1251
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    People join the NS to go to sea. The only problem with long deployments from the crew point of view was the pay did not match the personal sarcrifices the crews were making. Had they been deployed on any other overseas mission, they would have been paid for the difficulties caused by long periods away from home and family.
    Doing away with the hope of long deployments, in my opinion would be even more detrimental to morale.
    It would also make the case for the EPV/MRV more difficult to justify.
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  3. #1252
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmitÃ* View Post
    People join the NS to go to sea. The only problem with long deployments from the crew point of view was the pay did not match the personal sarcrifices the crews were making. Had they been deployed on any other overseas mission, they would have been paid for the difficulties caused by long periods away from home and family.
    Doing away with the hope of long deployments, in my opinion would be even more detrimental to morale.
    It would also make the case for the EPV/MRV more difficult to justify.
    Resolve deployment Payments issues. Ensure family support with a full time office for issues that arise. Adjust pay to ensure that the state subsidises food and accommodation in shore billets, with NO charges while at sea. Navy recruitment to run continuously to reach viable Strength Numbers. Increase strengths for certain technical grades in engineering and electronics to allow normal Sea/Shore ratios. An MRV could give support for African deployments assuming it may be beefed up by special Irish Units, or if more than one ship was deployed to a mission. Running a 9 ship Navy with supports, with a 1000 personnel is short about 300 all ranks. We should not run spare ships policy or we will rot away.

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  5. #1253
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    The pay and conditions/lifestyle isn’t attractive to recruit or perhaps more importantly retain personnel

    It is a bit chicken & egg to be honest when you take pay & allowances out of the equation.... you can’t maintain the operational tempo because there isn’t sufficient strength, you aren’t able to retain the strength you do have due to the operational tempo, if you decrease the operational tempo you could find personnel having to live aboard ship along side (unless things have changed) affecting morale & retention, you can’t do the 2 years ashore due to the low strength & operational tempo

    And in just over 2 months a no deal Brexit could result in a need to increase the operational tempo

  6. #1254
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The pay and conditions/lifestyle isn’t attractive to recruit or perhaps more importantly retain personnel

    It is a bit chicken & egg to be honest when you take pay & allowances out of the equation.... you can’t maintain the operational tempo because there isn’t sufficient strength, you aren’t able to retain the strength you do have due to the operational tempo, if you decrease the operational tempo you could find personnel having to live aboard ship along side (unless things have changed) affecting morale & retention, you can’t do the 2 years ashore due to the low strength & operational tempo

    And in just over 2 months a no deal Brexit could result in a need to increase the operational tempo
    Agree that negative inputs from financial measures are causing problems, especially recruitment control which often causes, I believe, deliberate strength drain down. Once assigned to an operational ship, every officer, NCO, and Rating lives on board, and in the case of Single personnel, it's their home for the period of posting. There is a psychological boost when posted ashore and Department of Defence must ensure that strengths meet that posting cycle.

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  8. #1255
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Agree that negative inputs from financial measures are causing problems, especially recruitment control which often causes, I believe, deliberate strength drain down. Once assigned to an operational ship, every officer, NCO, and Rating lives on board, and in the case of Single personnel, it's their home for the period of posting. There is a psychological boost when posted ashore and Department of Defence must ensure that strengths meet that posting cycle.
    Absolutely agree because the DF is unable to recruit or retain sufficient personnel... not all that being for financial reasons

  9. #1256
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Absolutely agree because the DF is unable to recruit or retain sufficient personnel... not all that being for financial reasons
    Naval trips abroad were always a plus factor among most crew. Occasionally domestic strains made it difficult for some crew members when separation became a problem. Recruits and recruiting is a Defence responsibility, however the numbers involved are not part of trained strength , so that in theory if you are at CS4 strength you should have recruits in training to cover statistical personnel losses. The damage is done by continually straining the use of trained personnel by lack of replacements. Training cadres also need to be as permanent as possible with all the skills necessary to guide recruits and approve the successful ones.

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  11. #1257
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmitÃ* View Post
    People join the NS to go to sea. The only problem with long deployments from the crew point of view was the pay did not match the personal sarcrifices the crews were making. Had they been deployed on any other overseas mission, they would have been paid for the difficulties caused by long periods away from home and family.
    Doing away with the hope of long deployments, in my opinion would be even more detrimental to morale.
    It would also make the case for the EPV/MRV more difficult to justify.
    If the Overseas Mission which attracts overseas rate allowances is scrapped it will speed up the exodus of personnel from the service. Fisheries/Routine Irish Water patrolling ss a similar issue to the EU Battlegroups. No Mission, No Medal, No Money.

    If personnel are going to be worked long hours away from home, they accept it IF they get paid the worth while allowance. If you don't pay the allowance for the same long hours, then people will just quit. End of.

  12. #1258
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    Quote Originally Posted by TangoSierra View Post
    If the Overseas Mission which attracts overseas rate allowances is scrapped it will speed up the exodus of personnel from the service. Fisheries/Routine Irish Water patrolling ss a similar issue to the EU Battlegroups. No Mission, No Medal, No Money.

    If personnel are going to be worked long hours away from home, they accept it IF they get paid the worth while allowance. If you don't pay the allowance for the same long hours, then people will just quit. End of.
    Certain Overseas Missions are essential . The present humanitarian crises in the Mediterranean / North Africa-principally Libya/Tunisia is an indictment of EU policies towards migration. Paying Libya and training their personnel to contain migration must NOT include bombing their detention facilities or have them wandering around the oceans on charity rescue vessels. Now another 80 have drowned off Tunisa overnight. The only way to stop economic migration is to , over time, improve the domestic and commercial circumstances in their own countries and stop those in power plundering national assets and resources.

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  14. #1259
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Certain Overseas Missions are essential . The present humanitarian crises in the Mediterranean / North Africa-principally Libya/Tunisia is an indictment of EU policies towards migration. Paying Libya and training their personnel to contain migration must NOT include bombing their detention facilities or have them wandering around the oceans on charity rescue vessels. Now another 80 have drowned off Tunisa overnight. The only way to stop economic migration is to , over time, improve the domestic and commercial circumstances in their own countries and stop those in power plundering national assets and resources.
    And improve regional security

  15. #1260
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    And improve regional security
    There is a request by the Humanitarian Agency that Naval ships should return to the Mediterranean to assist with returning rescued migrants, as they occur , to North Africa. They have also ask Libyans to release from detention more than 5000 migrants. response will be interesting!

  16. #1261
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    There is a request by the Humanitarian Agency that Naval ships should return to the Mediterranean to assist with returning rescued migrants, as they occur , to North Africa. They have also ask Libyans to release from detention more than 5000 migrants. response will be interesting!
    Which one and where do they suggest we land them?

    Do the authorities of those countries agree and can they be classed as safe?

  17. #1262
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Which one and where do they suggest we land them?

    Do the authorities of those countries agree and can they be classed as safe?
    UN council on migration, and UNHCR. They want the incarcerated 5000+ migrants in Libya, now joined by 400 survivors of the Refuge bombing, processed and dispersed properly to any countries that will have them , including returning to their country's of origin. Those that are trying to make sea journeys are to be rescued and returned to North Africa by an agreed process.

  18. #1263
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    UN council on migration, and UNHCR. They want the incarcerated 5000+ migrants in Libya, now joined by 400 survivors of the Refuge bombing, processed and dispersed properly to any countries that will have them , including returning to their country's of origin. Those that are trying to make sea journeys are to be rescued and returned to North Africa by an agreed process.
    So it continues in the Mare Nostra. The foreign Minister of the progenitors of OP Pontus and OP Sophia has rejected landing rights to all the current migrants, about 350 on various ships, including 251 on Ocean Viking, in Italy or any of it's Islands. The latter ship of Norwegian owners is now under Spanish Flag and associated with MSF and Salvini says take them to Spain or R. GEYER who is on board should take them to his home. When it gets flippant it loses humanity and people continue to suffer while Libya infects European well being without hindrance.

  19. #1264
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    OP Pontus ceased a year ago and OP Sophia is now air and training based

  20. #1265
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    OP Pontus ceased a year ago and OP Sophia is now air and training based
    In the meantime the stalwart remaining rescue Organisations are still doing our old job of saving lives and pulling bodies from the sea. The Estimate of " lost at sea " this year 2019 is around 700 and could be largely women, children, and the weak.
    In a vote yesterday, in the EU Parliament, a proposal to take positive action to prevent further loss of life was defeated by T__W__O votes. FOUR of the Votes against were by the let's get tough FINE GAEL MEP's including the Parliament Vice- President. I'm sure it must be the first time we voted for a Final Solution possibility, or should I say pressed the wrong buttons Again.

  21. #1266
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    In the meantime the stalwart remaining rescue Organisations are still doing our old job of saving lives and pulling bodies from the sea. The Estimate of " lost at sea " this year 2019 is around 700 and could be largely women, children, and the weak.
    In a vote yesterday, in the EU Parliament, a proposal to take positive action to prevent further loss of life was defeated by T__W__O votes. FOUR of the Votes against were by the let's get tough FINE GAEL MEP's including the Parliament Vice- President. I'm sure it must be the first time we voted for a Final Solution possibility, or should I say pressed the wrong buttons Again.
    The FF MEP didn't vote, he must have assumed someone else would vote for him. His excuse? He had to catch a flight home...
    I'm glad I didn't waste my EUPARL vote on FG this time round. No amount of spin from FG can change the facts. They voted with the Far Right. Their excuse about the wording being flawed is nonsense. It is their job to amend wording to make it fit. Fact is, they are happier to see refugees die in the Med.
    Meanwhile:
    - Deaths of 39 people in a refrigerated truck

    - FG MEPs voting against helping migrants

    - Gov presses pause on moving 130 people in DP to Ballinamore following protests

    Are we the baddies?
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  22. #1267
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    Claire Daly didn't vote either but nobody seems to be interested in asking her why

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  24. #1268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    Claire Daly didn't vote either but nobody seems to be interested in asking her why
    Did her partner Mick vote on it?

  25. #1269
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    The FF MEP didn't vote, he must have assumed someone else would vote for him. His excuse? He had to catch a flight home...
    I'm glad I didn't waste my EUPARL vote on FG this time round. No amount of spin from FG can change the facts. They voted with the Far Right. Their excuse about the wording being flawed is nonsense. It is their job to amend wording to make it fit. Fact is, they are happier to see refugees die in the Med.
    Meanwhile:
    - Deaths of 39 people in a refrigerated truck

    - FG MEPs voting against helping migrants

    - Gov presses pause on moving 130 people in DP to Ballinamore following protests

    Are we the baddies?
    Because of the party/alliance system voting or abstaining is always a matter of expediency or " financial constraint " never a matter of conscience. It was Dail decisions that closed ISL, VCD, Railway systems, Barracks and Defence lands, and put " building the nation " into the hands of piratical developers. These are the people that get financially rewarded for getting a better job than their last one by large grants, CLARE got E 37,000!!

  26. #1270
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    The FF MEP didn't vote, he must have assumed someone else would vote for him. His excuse? He had to catch a flight home...
    I'm glad I didn't waste my EUPARL vote on FG this time round. No amount of spin from FG can change the facts. They voted with the Far Right. Their excuse about the wording being flawed is nonsense. It is their job to amend wording to make it fit. Fact is, they are happier to see refugees die in the Med.
    Meanwhile:
    - Deaths of 39 people in a refrigerated truck

    - FG MEPs voting against helping migrants

    - Gov presses pause on moving 130 people in DP to Ballinamore following protests

    Are we the baddies?
    Ten percent of our population is foreign born, We have done our bit.

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  28. #1271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    Claire Daly didn't vote either but nobody seems to be interested in asking her why
    She is in the greedy wing of the left

  29. #1272
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    Significant numbers are still crossing the Med but they are a fraction of the numbers of 2015.

    These people do need the EU’s help but prevention is better than cure!

  30. #1273
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    Mod,Customs and immigration stuff shifted to Garda and policing
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
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