CPV Replacement

[ancientmariner]

Heard on the radio yesterday that the Green Party manifesto called for:
Designate 50% of Irish territorial waters as Marine protected areas

Their submission on the National Marine Planning Framework says 30% by 2030, it’s currently 2.3%


So not to forget what the CPV replacements will spend a lot of time doing.

I have read most available data and, while it is typical of a preliminary Gov. statement trying to lessen a national condition that they are responsible for, the main trust is to increase the ability of the adjacent seas to act as a carbon sink. this means acidity levels have to be reduced and we have to stop polluting our rivers and shitting in the sea. Most coastal towns empty sewage to sea, including those surrounding Cork Harbour. The old joke was after the funeral, the wife brought home her husbands ashes, the guests asked her what are you going to do with those, she got up taking the urn with her, and when she got back the urn was empty. She explained that he always wanted to be buried at sea, so I flushed him down the Loo.

[DeV]

I have read most available data and, while it is typical of a preliminary Gov. statement trying to lessen a national condition that they are responsible for, the main trust is to increase the ability of the adjacent seas to act as a carbon sink. this means acidity levels have to be reduced and we have to stop polluting our rivers and shitting in the sea. Most coastal towns empty sewage to sea, including those surrounding Cork Harbour. The old joke was after the funeral, the wife brought home her husbands ashes, the guests asked her what are you going to do with those, she got up taking the urn with her, and when she got back the urn was empty. She explained that he always wanted to be buried at sea, so I flushed him down the Loo.

What I’m suggesting is that a 1304% increase in MPAs (within the 12 mile limit) may need to an increased requirement for fisheries protection duties in that area.

Of course the other part is whatever Brexit deal is done on fisheries may also mean a huge increased requirement for fisheries protection duties in the EEZ

[ancientmariner]

What I’m suggesting is that a 1304% increase in MPAs (within the 12 mile limit) may need to an increased requirement for fisheries protection duties in that area.

Of course the other part is whatever Brexit deal is done on fisheries may also mean a huge increased requirement for fisheries protection duties in the EEZ

Fishing by all nations of the EU is controlled by agreement in amount , species, commencement time and date, and overall quota for each nation and species type. Each nation is entitled to declare Total Exclusion Zones for known nurseries. On paper you know when they are LEGAL, so you board to make sure the paperwork ( logbooks) are correct, and by inspection all species parameters are correct. The AIS shows location and will give a clue to premature starters for closer inspection. If MPA usage is guaranteed there should be an electronic link with surface vessels to transfer target data as seen. Flights over 6 hours would require double crews.

[DeV]

Fishing by all nations of the EU is controlled by agreement in amount , species, commencement time and date, and overall quota for each nation and species type. Each nation is entitled to declare Total Exclusion Zones for known nurseries. On paper you know when they are LEGAL, so you board to make sure the paperwork ( logbooks) are correct, and by inspection all species parameters are correct. The AIS shows location and will give a clue to premature starters for closer inspection. If MPA usage is guaranteed there should be an electronic link with surface vessels to transfer target data as seen. Flights over 6 hours would require double crews.

You have to board them to check the catch and log book.

The MPA’s and other electronic means give location and some other info.

[EUFighter]

The National Marine Planning Framework makes interesting reading especially all the detailed maps that it contains. The map on pg44 shows the extent of the areas currently designated, but looking further one can guess just where new zones are likely. As a lot of these areas will affect small fishing boat activities the main concern will be how the effected person will get alternative employment. Will they find employment in the offshore wind industry?

Overall a lot to digest in the document. Hopefully it is an indication that we are slowly turning around to look outward at the sea rather than standing on the strand looking inward.

https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/def...work_final.pdf

[EUFighter]

Within the 12 mile limit it is mainly smaller boats that do the fishing, like the 604 less than 6m that are currently on the register. As for AIS 1783 of the boats are under the 15m limit so relying on AIS to track is not going to cut mustard. Just like our lack of air search radar our NS needs to have a chain of coastal radars to be able to monitor our coastal waters.

[DeV]

Within the 12 mile limit it is mainly smaller boats that do the fishing, like the 604 less than 6m that are currently on the register. As for AIS 1783 of the boats are under the 15m limit so relying on AIS to track is not going to cut mustard. Just like our lack of air search radar our NS needs to have a chain of coastal radars to be able to monitor our coastal waters.

The CASAs would pick them up though

[ancientmariner]

The National Marine Planning Framework makes interesting reading especially all the detailed maps that it contains. The map on pg44 shows the extent of the areas currently designated, but looking further one can guess just where new zones are likely. As a lot of these areas will affect small fishing boat activities the main concern will be how the effected person will get alternative employment. Will they find employment in the offshore wind industry?

Overall a lot to digest in the document. Hopefully it is an indication that we are slowly turning around to look outward at the sea rather than standing on the strand looking inward.

https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/def...work_final.pdf

The Govt. document referenced above is part of Marine Spatial planning and was produced by the State's Housing department. It says very little on implying curtailment to fishing, other than to say stocks should be healthy and mature enough to be caught, while waters should be pristine and fit for purpose. A majority of things wrong with coastal waters, in general ,is under the management of extended Government. Globally resources of any kind are plundered and mistreated not least Bogs, mines, waterways, scenic sites, transient industries of an extractive nature like ISH in Haulbowline.

[DeV]

No Dept of Housing, Planning and Local Government

From the MPF not all MPAs involve fish

[EUFighter]

The CASAs would pick them up though

The CASAs are on average only airborne 3 hours per day and given the size of the patrol area it would be almost impossible for them to detect small boats that do not spend a long time out as they stay inshore.

[EUFighter]

The Govt. document referenced above is part of Marine Spatial planning and was produced by the State's Housing department. It says very little on implying curtailment to fishing, other than to say stocks should be healthy and mature enough to be caught, while waters should be pristine and fit for purpose. A majority of things wrong with coastal waters, in general ,is under the management of extended Government. Globally resources of any kind are plundered and mistreated not least Bogs, mines, waterways, scenic sites, transient industries of an extractive nature like ISH in Haulbowline.

It is a draft for consultation and the dept that is coordinating it is responsible for Planning and Local Government. The consultation document covers almost everything that relates to our seas including the discharges into them. It sets out the status today and the question that it is posing is what do we want to do and where?

Do we want to declare the U-boat graveyard off the Donegal coast a protect area due to its historical significance and as a fish refuge? Do we want to protect certain spawning areas like that for Mackerel? Or maybe not if we cannot catch the fish later when they are in UK waters!

My main issue is that no matter what we declare as protected areas we need the means to monitor then 24/7 as that is the first step in enforcement.

[ancientmariner]

It is a draft for consultation and the dept that is coordinating it is responsible for Planning and Local Government. The consultation document covers almost everything that relates to our seas including the discharges into them. It sets out the status today and the question that it is posing is what do we want to do and where?

Do we want to declare the U-boat graveyard off the Donegal coast a protect area due to its historical significance and as a fish refuge? Do we want to protect certain spawning areas like that for Mackerel? Or maybe not if we cannot catch the fish later when they are in UK waters!

My main issue is that no matter what we declare as protected areas we need the means to monitor then 24/7 as that is the first step in enforcement.

I agree in principle with your analysis of where we are. The whole issue revolves around whether we clean up at sea or stop land based pollutants entering the sea through half baked sewerage and industrial systems. Most cities world wide had barges dumping everything at sea both liquid and solid. We need a system of discharge licences and appropriate oversight. Where the Navy come in is to stop deliberate infractions. Fish is a thorny problem as to ownership of stocks, if they are born in Irish waters, when are they common stock, and who can catch them. The latter was easy under EU oversight. Unfortunately Brexit breaks that mould and increases duty for oversight.

[EUFighter]

I agree in principle with your analysis of where we are. The whole issue revolves around whether we clean up at sea or stop land based pollutants entering the sea through half baked sewerage and industrial systems. Most cities world wide had barges dumping everything at sea both liquid and solid. We need a system of discharge licences and appropriate oversight. Where the Navy come in is to stop deliberate infractions. Fish is a thorny problem as to ownership of stocks, if they are born in Irish waters, when are they common stock, and who can catch them. The latter was easy under EU oversight. Unfortunately Brexit breaks that mould and increases duty for oversight.

The "out of sight out of mind" has to be tackled, even the idea of dumping sewage into the sea is something we should stop. No only does it pollute but it is a waste of a potential green fuel: bio-gas.

[ancientmariner]

The "out of sight out of mind" has to be tackled, even the idea of dumping sewage into the sea is something we should stop. No only does it pollute but it is a waste of a potential green fuel: bio-gas.

And today's backpage headlines in Irish Examiner "Conservation groups shamefully underfunded "by the State. It will be an uphill battle looking for pocket money for a myriad of tasks.

[EUFighter]

And today's backpage headlines in Irish Examiner "Conservation groups shamefully underfunded "by the State. It will be an uphill battle looking for pocket money for a myriad of tasks.

I can understand voluntary conservation groups which are aiding the state are annoyed especially when horse and greyhound racing will get €96m next year.

[ancientmariner]

https://www.ecagroup.com/en/solution...500-mothership

Autonomous systems are largely an Industry led concept based on computerisation and distance control gleaned through many years of NASA projects. Not forgetting that many of the Nasa projects had crew on board taking over when glitches occurred. The mariner does not typically work in a FLAT sea environment nor does he always work in a non-hostile AOP. ROV's operate best in a created environment with all positive conditions for weather and non-aggressive interference. Taking the Navy ashore for certain roles will lead to inexperience of the SEA medium and a degree of equipment loss or failure requiring recovery actions and other minder inputs including ships.In my opinion ROV actions will have to be from a controlling ship operating similarly to the Minehunter.
Finally in another part of this thread about Designers of Defence policy and ToR's for the Defence Commission--terms such as "we will pursue a policy of ACTIVE military neutrality " might indicate that we have no intention to equip to deal with matters outside of our visual horizon. We should be able to reach Ireland plus limits of the EEZ.

[na grohmiti]

In case anyone missed it.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40192794.html
Sounds like something larger than the Customs cutter, but smaller than the Australian Armidales.

[CTU]

In case anyone missed it.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40192794.html
Sounds like something larger than the Customs cutter, but smaller than the Australian Armidales.

The two "decommissioned" RNZN Inshore Patrol Vessels?

[Laners]

Maybe a lease arrangement while two are being built , France or Holland maybe , CMN in Cherbourg build the Vigilante class which comes in various models , Coast Guard /Fishery Protection and armed Naval .

[Sparky42]

It just occurs to me, if we do buy these two and the MRV is still going to happen are we now seeing the Navy going up to 10 hulls and if so surely there will have to be an increase in personnel above the current formal establishment even with the manpower crisis?

[na grohmiti]

It just occurs to me, if we do buy these two and the MRV is still going to happen are we now seeing the Navy going up to 10 hulls and if so surely there will have to be an increase in personnel above the current formal establishment even with the manpower crisis?

Yes, and no.
These 2 proposed vessels would replace the peacocks. (one of which is already wadied)
The MRV replaces P31.(Has not put to sea in over a year, unless you count the spin upriver)
We still only have a NS establishment for 8 ships, however the spec mentioned in the Examiner suggests you could crew both ships with the crew from one ship currently in service.(the Remaining Peacock?)
That being said, at the rate people are abandoning the NS, you'll struggle to keep the 4 P60s at sea shortly.

[DeV]

2 x Scimitar class patrol vessels? (They returned from Gib to the U.K. earlier this year)

[Sparky42]

2 x Scimitar class patrol vessels? (They returned from Gib to the U.K. earlier this year)

A lot smaller than what the article suggests and I don't see how they could really do inspections. Given what the French have been doing could it be the Flamant class? They are scheduled for replacement over the next few years and the French have previous like that, particularly if there was a chance we might buy new builds from them as a follow on?

[Sparky42]

Lursen has a couple of Patrol ships still on the books from the cancelled Saudi order and have recently sold others to Egypt?
https://luerssen-defence.com/english-luerssen-opb-40/

[na grohmiti]

A lot smaller than what the article suggests and I don't see how they could really do inspections. Given what the French have been doing could it be the Flamant class? They are scheduled for replacement over the next few years and the French have previous like that, particularly if there was a chance we might buy new builds from them as a follow on?

Doubtful, the French like to pass on their retired vessels to their protectorates elsewhere, and these have not yet been tagged for disposal, and their replacements are not due for another 5 years or so.

The type of ship likely to be used would be between 40-50m long and can be crewed by just 20 personnel.

It's understood that two ships not being used by a foreign navy are currently being examined and a formal approach to purchase them could be made soon.

Interesting the use of the word "Foreign" and not "European".