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View Poll Results: (Realistically) What best to replace the Peacock CPVs with?

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  • Like for like (a similarly capable CPV)

    22 33.85%
  • 1-2 x OPVs (2 defending on available funds)

    39 60.00%
  • Larger number of much less capable patrol craft)

    4 6.15%
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Thread: CPV Replacement

  1. #851
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    The greatest risk we face, according to the experts in the Naval Service, is an attack on the undersea cables that link Europe, via us, to North america.
    We need to have the means to monitor these, and the means to do so are similar to that found on a vessel used for mine clearance.
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  3. #852
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    The greatest risk we face, according to the experts in the Naval Service, is an attack on the undersea cables that link Europe, via us, to North america.
    We need to have the means to monitor these, and the means to do so are similar to that found on a vessel used for mine clearance.
    As in sonar?

  4. #853
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The Atlas Electronix system would be useful port based, as it could pass over a channel/entry before ships enter or leave to deal with a magnetic type mine by giving it a large ship magnetic pulse to detonate it. "More complex problems" would have to be dealt with by conventional methods. Most magnetic mines have ship magnetic signatures and counters installed. If a convoy is leaving port it might ignore the first few ships such as escorts, pilot boats, tugs, then take out the fourth ship blocking the channel for both directions, closing the port. Larger approach waterways like in the GULF are taking sometime to clear with 4 RN minehunters. I would avoid miracle cures costing £13m as it cannot be enough to provide a total answer to all of the MCM problem
    In the main the risks would be in the estuaries and/or entrances to the main ports but also the major shipping lanes off Ireland.

  5. #854
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    As in sonar?
    ROV, USV, dive support, DP in challenging sea conditions etc.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  7. #855
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    I would agree about undersea cables, even if they do not come on land here a quick look at any chart for the Celtic Sea will show the mass of cables coming from the UK (Europe) and passing through out EEZ. Then we have the interconnectors, which will soon be joined by a new super interconnector to France. But as with most thing under the surface no-one seems to care.

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  9. #856
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    As in sonar?
    Not totally. There are about 230 fibre optic cables systems world wide with 550,00 miles of fibre. They are the pipelines of economic and fiscal movement throughout the world. They suffer from an orphanage type syndrome as they really don't have a Mammy and Daddy until they enter a territorial region at the point of exit or landing. They are prone to cutting, tapping, and eavesdropping. The current European solution is loads of MPA's and ship's that can track submarines so as to build a picture of submarine and surface traffic in the whole of the North Atlantic and adjacent waters. The Swedes and Norwegians do it to the North. The Brits do it minus MPA in the middle, The French do it to our South and we try on surface to the West. More to do.
    Last edited by ancientmariner; 18th May 2020 at 10:24.

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  11. #857
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    I would agree about undersea cables, even if they do not come on land here a quick look at any chart for the Celtic Sea will show the mass of cables coming from the UK (Europe) and passing through out EEZ. Then we have the interconnectors, which will soon be joined by a new super interconnector to France. But as with most thing under the surface no-one seems to care.
    Disliked in error

  12. #858
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Not totally. There are about 230 fibre optic cables systems world wide with 550,00 miles of fibre. They are the pipelines of economic and fiscal movement throughout the world. They suffer from an orphanage type syndrome as they really don't have a Mammy and Daddy until they enter a territorial region at the point of exit or landing. They are prone to cutting, tapping, and eavesdropping. The current European solution is loads of MPA's and ship's that can track submarines so as to build a picture of submarine and surface traffic in the whole of the North Atlantic and adjacent waters. The Swedes and Norwegians do it to the North. The Brits do it minus MPA in the middle, The French do it to our South and we try on surface to the West. More to do.
    The most recent Russian sub accident revealed they have serious plans for interfering with such infastructure. A manned sub, designed to latch onto the bottom of one of their normal Delta IV naval subs (thus disguising its exit and entry from those naval ports covered by satellite) and capable of diving, manned to 2500m. It has a crew of about 25 and is fitted with manipulator arms.
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/hisutto.../#658fb5a959e9
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  14. #859
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    EDP:

    Pre-planning stage

    replacement of the two Coastal Patrol vessels, acquisition of diver based mine counter-measures and counter improvised explosive device equipment

    Under consideration

    Similar projects which fall into the category of warranted future more detailed consideration are ship-based mine and mine counter measure and counter improvised explosive device systems
    Last edited by DeV; Yesterday at 10:03.

  15. #860
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    Surely this is the only game in town in that regard?


    https://products.damen.com/-/media/P...00_05_2016.pdf
    Nice lean manning, with plenty of spare accommodation when needed. (13+30) and a 30T BP if needed.

    The 3600 version is even better, but 84m. Still though, HELIPAD!

    https://products.damen.com/-/media/P...00_05_2016.pdf
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  17. #861
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Surely this is the only game in town in that regard?


    https://products.damen.com/-/media/P...00_05_2016.pdf
    Nice lean manning, with plenty of spare accommodation when needed. (13+30) and a 30T BP if needed.

    The 3600 version is even better, but 84m. Still though, HELIPAD!

    https://products.damen.com/-/media/P...00_05_2016.pdf
    what's the weight of that bloody thing????
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
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  18. #862
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey View Post
    what's the weight of that bloody thing????
    Hard to say, as they are designed to carry things, their tonnage is given in DWT, not displacement. The Smaller is 1600 DWT, the larger is 3600 DWT.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
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  19. #863
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Surely this is the only game in town in that regard?


    https://products.damen.com/-/media/P...00_05_2016.pdf
    Nice lean manning, with plenty of spare accommodation when needed. (13+30) and a 30T BP if needed.

    The 3600 version is even better, but 84m. Still though, HELIPAD!

    https://products.damen.com/-/media/P...00_05_2016.pdf
    Slow and unarmed though
    All weather?

  20. #864
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Slow and unarmed though
    All weather?
    As all weather as the Peacocks. Speed is given as cruising speed, no max given (that I see-eyesight not great today) but copmparable to normal cruising speed in coastal waters. I can count on one hand the number of times the ship I worked on went faster than 12kn in near continental waters, and that was only with flat seas and a tailwind.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
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  21. #865
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    As all weather as the Peacocks. Speed is given as cruising speed, no max given (that I see-eyesight not great today) but copmparable to normal cruising speed in coastal waters. I can count on one hand the number of times the ship I worked on went faster than 12kn in near continental waters, and that was only with flat seas and a tailwind.
    I’ll rephrase sea keeping ?

    That’s max speed 14 kts (for the 1600 model)
    https://products.damen.com/en/ranges...xiliary-vessel

  22. #866
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Hard to say, as they are designed to carry things, their tonnage is given in DWT, not displacement. The Smaller is 1600 DWT, the larger is 3600 DWT.
    This is a summer type vessel with a draft of 3m and a DWT of 1600t ( minus 170t+300t+150t +100t ) she would then be at Burnt out DWT 1600-720 consumables which is 880t and if you add in payload equal to ballast at 170t, the vessels weighs in at about 710t. She hits the 3m draft with everything loaded on board. Her speed at 14kts is casual and her planned Area for GMDSS rating is A2, coastal regions including Europe. A bit more emphasis needed on MCM and towing. The ships is mainly electrical propulsion via diesels. Significant requirement for an EA type ERA. Small ship at 199 ft+/-

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  24. #867
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Hard to say, as they are designed to carry things, their tonnage is given in DWT, not displacement. The Smaller is 1600 DWT, the larger is 3600 DWT.
    I am confused, on the website and in the MRAV product brochure the weights are given as "displacement". In the individual product sheets it is given as DWT.

  25. #868
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    This is a summer type vessel with a draft of 3m and a DWT of 1600t ( minus 170t+300t+150t +100t ) she would then be at Burnt out DWT 1600-720 consumables which is 880t and if you add in payload equal to ballast at 170t, the vessels weighs in at about 710t. She hits the 3m draft with everything loaded on board. Her speed at 14kts is casual and her planned Area for GMDSS rating is A2, coastal regions including Europe. A bit more emphasis needed on MCM and towing. The ships is mainly electrical propulsion via diesels. Significant requirement for an EA type ERA. Small ship at 199 ft+/-
    Displacement on the main page (not the pdf) is given as 1600 tons

    WRT MCM it is one of the few vessels Of that size that could Carry all the TEUs required by NSDS and still have room for RHIB workboats, USVs and other containerised MCM equipment. It could also give the divers berths

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  27. #869
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  29. #870
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    This is a summer type vessel with a draft of 3m and a DWT of 1600t ( minus 170t+300t+150t +100t ) she would then be at Burnt out DWT 1600-720 consumables which is 880t and if you add in payload equal to ballast at 170t, the vessels weighs in at about 710t. She hits the 3m draft with everything loaded on board. Her speed at 14kts is casual and her planned Area for GMDSS rating is A2, coastal regions including Europe. A bit more emphasis needed on MCM and towing. The ships is mainly electrical propulsion via diesels. Significant requirement for an EA type ERA. Small ship at 199 ft+/-
    Just for my knowledge but I understood that Deadweight tonnage (DWT) was the amount of weight a vessel could carry. So empty weight + DWT would equal displacement, is this correct?

  30. #871
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    The Damen MRAV designs we see today are concept designs and would change for a customer. Several customers have ordered their OPV designs yet none so far look like the brochure. If we look at the P50 design and the VARD 7-80 brochure it seems we are missing a helideck aft!

    The MRAV3600 has some good features like the enclosed working area with the added benefit of the helideck that this provides. The location of the RIBS is probably not the best as it is very similar to the original on HMNZS Canterbury.

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  32. #872
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Just for my knowledge but I understood that Deadweight tonnage (DWT) was the amount of weight a vessel could carry. So empty weight + DWT would equal displacement, is this correct?
    You are correct. The terminology error oversight was mine, as the Damen brochure needed more careful reading. The displacement tonnage is 1600t so empty weight would be about half that when you take away fuel, stores, FW, waste, and ballast. the ballast is at 170 tonnes so the " cargo " element won't be more than 250/300 tonnes.
    I wont blame Damen as the use of DWT should have rung alarm bells.

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