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  1. #1
    BQMS Auldsod's Avatar
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    NSR officers at sea

    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Pity about the gender and not entirely understood as the candidates are selected. Right now it would benefit the new officers if they could get the time to spend 4/6 months on ships to become useful watch officers in their branches and give them professional confidence.
    I believe I have mentioned this in another thread where there was a similar comment. Four/six months on ship would be great in theory but your analysis isn't reflecting the fact that these new officers are busy with demanding full time jobs. I'm sure finding the time to complete the course was difficult let alone finding six months to go out to sea.

    Anyway, most of the officers in the NSR are within the four units and their role isn't to fulfil duties as watch officers on the ships. Anyway, the NSR just has one branch now - Seaman's.

    I would define the NSR's Officer's role as being two fold.

    - Administration and organisation of the unit locally and ensuring training and other requirments are met including providing a command element for the unit's local responsibilites such as port control etc.
    - Overseeing the training and administration required to ensure that NSR ratings and junior NCOs are able to provide support to the PDF at sea by going on patrols on an individual basis.

    NSR officers are primarily admistrators and managers. They facilitate the rest of the unit so they can perform what are possibly the more fun tasks of the organisation - going to sea and getting out on the RHIBs. A demanding and important role.
    Last edited by Auldsod; 27th June 2020 at 16:51.

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    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    An old and bold Sgt once told me "The reason we have officers is that someone has to sign for everything"
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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  5. #3
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    The NSR already has a number of serving officers who hold merchant marine watchkeeping qualifications. Indeed, one was president of the Association of Master Mariners for a time.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
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    BQMS Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    The NSR already has a number of serving officers who hold merchant marine watchkeeping qualifications. Indeed, one was president of the Association of Master Mariners for a time.
    Indeed it does and they are a great asset.

    The gaining of such qualifications for new NSR officers without a maritime background or prior PDF service isn't realistic and does not align with their roles within the four units.

    Those with watchkeeping certs are of course great use to the Technical Support Unit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    The NSR already has a number of serving officers who hold merchant marine watchkeeping qualifications. Indeed, one was president of the Association of Master Mariners for a time.
    Quals being recognised? Or "Sorry wasn't done in the DF..." like used to be the case?
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

  10. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truck Driver View Post
    Quals being recognised? Or "Sorry wasn't done in the DF..." like used to be the case?
    NSR Offrs Ens Kevin Whitney & S/Lt Paul Roche receive their Naval Watchkeeping certs from Commodore Hugh Tully, FOCNS @defenceforces @DF_COS https://t.co/zgMKxpDQmL

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  12. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    I believe I have mentioned this in another thread where there was a similar comment. Four/six months on ship would be great in theory but your analysis isn't reflecting the fact that these new officers are busy with demanding full time jobs. I'm sure finding the time to complete the course was difficult let alone finding six months to go out to sea.

    Anyway, most of the officers in the NSR are within the four units and their role isn't to fulfil duties as watch officers on the ships. Anyway, the NSR just has one branch now - Seaman's.

    I would define the NSR's Officer's role as being two fold.

    - Administration and organisation of the unit locally and ensuring training and other requirments are met including providing a command element for the unit's local responsibilites such as port control etc.
    - Overseeing the training and administration required to ensure that NSR ratings and junior NCOs are able to provide support to the PDF at sea by going on patrols on an individual basis.

    NSR officers are primarily admistrators and managers. They facilitate the rest of the unit so they can perform what are possibly the more fun tasks of the organisation - going to sea and getting out on the RHIBs. A demanding and important role.
    I was a Gp. Officer for the SM. When I was retiring from the NS , I put in a professional testament and among my recommendations was to get the SM to sea. When they became CULTACA I was happy that they would slot in to sea going roles . An administrator shore-based has no ability to teach future sailors practical seamanship and watchkeeping duties. ALL must go to sea.

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    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    I was a Gp. Officer for the SM. When I was retiring from the NS , I put in a professional testament and among my recommendations was to get the SM to sea. When they became CULTACA I was happy that they would slot in to sea going roles . An administrator shore-based has no ability to teach future sailors practical seamanship and watchkeeping duties. ALL must go to sea.
    They don’t have to teach it they have to administer and resource the training.

    The problem is what jobs do you get NSR officers on OPVs to do? And how do you train them to do it?

    Unless they have merchant marine experience there is no way they could get NWC

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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    I was a Gp. Officer for the SM. When I was retiring from the NS , I put in a professional testament and among my recommendations was to get the SM to sea. When they became CULTACA I was happy that they would slot in to sea going roles . An administrator shore-based has no ability to teach future sailors practical seamanship and watchkeeping duties. ALL must go to sea.
    I agree fully!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    They don’t have to teach it they have to administer and resource the training.

    The problem is what jobs do you get NSR officers on OPVs to do? And how do you train them to do it?

    Unless they have merchant marine experience there is no way they could get NWC
    Resource what training, thats done through the BTC. Sounds like they have very little to do. What administration do they do...
    Last edited by batterysgt; 28th June 2020 at 21:22.

  17. #11
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batterysgt View Post
    Resourse what training, that done through the BTC. Sounds like they have very little to do. What administration do they do...
    There is a lot of admin that goes with any properly conducted course

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    There is a lot of admin that goes with any properly conducted course
    My point is, if they are not part of a BTC staff, they are not conducting courses, they are planning camp and getting people motivated to commit to it.

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  21. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by batterysgt View Post
    My point is, if they are not part of a BTC staff, they are not conducting courses, they are planning camp and getting people motivated to commit to it.
    NSR don’t have a BTC, they have the Naval College

    Any unit in the DF can and do conduct Cses. An unit that is conducting a Cse in the DF is a Training Institution and bound to conduct it in the manner laid out in the relevant syllabus and TI.

    Recruit Training Cse, 2-3* (and NS equivalent) Cse, any cse

    Camps are also conducted

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  23. #14
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    they are planning camp

    "camp" lol . Lads there hasnt been camp in donkeys your either running a course, on a course, or in support to one or on an ex/mre/battlegroup or on duties, thats it, thats all I've been doing for the last 8 years. Camp FFS.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

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  25. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    They don’t have to teach it they have to administer and resource the training.

    The problem is what jobs do you get NSR officers on OPVs to do? And how do you train them to do it?

    Unless they have merchant marine experience there is no way they could get NWC
    If you put people in Naval uniforms it is expected they will conduct their profession at sea or keeping ships at sea. In WW11 the escorts were largely manned by 90 Day wonders and some commanded by Bank clerks with the Atlantic their first experience of mighty oceans. Training and encouragement. When the ATC took over Marine Rescue Coordination, we had two weeks to train them in Haulbowline on Marine Charts and communications procedures and two weeks mentoring them in Shannon, and that was it up and running. In 12 weeks intensive training anybody could be a safe watch officer and the Astro end of it could be done in unit by following an Offshore Yacht Master's programme. My doctor did his in 6 months and passed his ticket.

  26. #16
    BQMS Auldsod's Avatar
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    Just to clarify my final point from the above.

    - NSR officers with a maritime background and said qualifications should and are allowed to provide relief on state ships.
    - NSR officers with no such background will never be able to attain the time and experience to acquire such qualifications through their reserve service. We need to be realistic. They are of course vital to their units. NSR personnel are considerably less useful on ships from the rank of PO and above as it is impossible to attain the required experience unless you're in the merchant or have prior service.

    Anyway, BZ to all of the new officers! Enough off topic from me!

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  28. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    If you put people in Naval uniforms it is expected they will conduct their profession at sea or keeping ships at sea. In WW11 the escorts were largely manned by 90 Day wonders and some commanded by Bank clerks with the Atlantic their first experience of mighty oceans. Training and encouragement. When the ATC took over Marine Rescue Coordination, we had two weeks to train them in Haulbowline on Marine Charts and communications procedures and two weeks mentoring them in Shannon, and that was it up and running. In 12 weeks intensive training anybody could be a safe watch officer and the Astro end of it could be done in unit by following an Offshore Yacht Master's programme. My doctor did his in 6 months and passed his ticket.
    In answer to the question what would you do with an NSR officer aboard ship? Put him on duty/watch with an experienced young officer and mentor him on every shipboard task. Learn all OOD tasks, ship safety, ship openings and significance of X,Y,Z, doors. On watch with the mentoring officer become familiar with bridge layout, use all equipment Radar, ECDIS, Echo sounders, FCS, fix ship, traffic avoidance, emergency drills, using phones and radio. When opportunity arises, fire weapons, send NSR officer with boarding officer and carry out inspections. Gradually let him/her make decisions, alter course , avoid opposing traffic. You learn mostly by experience, remember every ship has first trippers who become first class sailors.

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  30. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    Just to clarify my final point from the above.

    - NSR officers with a maritime background and said qualifications should and are allowed to provide relief on state ships.
    - NSR officers with no such background will never be able to attain the time and experience to acquire such qualifications through their reserve service. We need to be realistic. They are of course vital to their units. NSR personnel are considerably less useful on ships from the rank of PO and above as it is impossible to attain the required experience unless you're in the merchant or have prior service.

    Anyway, BZ to all of the new officers! Enough off topic from me!
    A friend of mine made approaches to the NSR many years ago when his old unit was being disbanded, around the same time he was moving county. A third engineer working on Tankers. The CO of the unit at the time told him they had no use for his skills.
    Same CO turned away many others for the same reason, people with 154s, powerboat courses, merchant marine experience....even former NS Seamen.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  32. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    In answer to the question what would you do with an NSR officer aboard ship? Put him on duty/watch with an experienced young officer and mentor him on every shipboard task. Learn all OOD tasks, ship safety, ship openings and significance of X,Y,Z, doors. On watch with the mentoring officer become familiar with bridge layout, use all equipment Radar, ECDIS, Echo sounders, FCS, fix ship, traffic avoidance, emergency drills, using phones and radio. When opportunity arises, fire weapons, send NSR officer with boarding officer and carry out inspections. Gradually let him/her make decisions, alter course , avoid opposing traffic. You learn mostly by experience, remember every ship has first trippers who become first class sailors.

    What else do you think they do.

  33. #20
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by popeye View Post
    What else do you think they do.
    But your aren’t going to qualify them to do it by themselves during an annual 2-3 week patrol ?

    Even if they have some kind of new launch to practice on more frequently they will always be an understudy.

    Is their any jobs that they could be deployed on OPVs for say an annual patrol to help take the strain without a massive amount of FTT or courses to be completed where they would be useful (if they don’t already have merchant navy experience)?

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    Last edited by popeye; 29th June 2020 at 15:25.

  35. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by popeye View Post
    Amy new launches will not require a merchant ticket and will be fully manned by the NSR.
    Spot on with the above but this is where the disconnect is.

    An NSR officer may as well go down the PDF commissioning route if they want to properly stand watches as 2 weeks FTT training aren't enough. Six months is pie in the sky as this is what be required to properly take on knowledge at a significant level. Maybe someone could take a leave of absence and do it once but then it's immediate skill fade.

    I'm referring to operating on the ships and not the launches.They are different kettle of fish as popeye rightly states.

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  37. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    Spot on with the above but this is where the disconnect is.

    An NSR officer may as well go down the PDF commissioning route if they want to properly stand watches as 2 weeks FTT training aren't enough. Six months is pie in the sky as this is what be required to properly take on knowledge at a significant level. Maybe someone could take a leave of absence and do it once but then it's immediate skill fade.

    I'm referring to operating on the ships and not the launches.They are different kettle of fish as popeye rightly states.
    Takes 2 days to learn how to coxn a boat. Takes 3 years (including seatime and full time education) to gain the skills required to take command of a bridge of any ship, civilian or military. Even after 3 years you will have the OC a few steps away from your decisions at all times.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  39. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    But your aren’t going to qualify them to do it by themselves during an annual 2-3 week patrol ?

    Even if they have some kind of new launch to practice on more frequently they will always be an understudy.

    Is their any jobs that they could be deployed on OPVs for say an annual patrol to help take the strain without a massive amount of FTT or courses to be completed where they would be useful (if they don’t already have merchant navy experience)?
    All training is useful. A 50ft launch is perfect if it is fitted out with most of the Equipments found on modern launches, such as, Radar, radio, GPS. Handling an manoeuvring such vessels provides a good seed bed of knowledge. I have carried SM ratings of all ranks and used them as understudies during our trips. Even the newest NSR officer with sufficient mentoring and a kind DPO can carry out the duties in port and anchor of OOD/OOW. The tasking is in the name Naval Service Reserve.

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  41. #25
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Takes 2 days to learn how to coxn a boat. Takes 3 years (including seatime and full time education) to gain the skills required to take command of a bridge of any ship, civilian or military. Even after 3 years you will have the OC a few steps away from your decisions at all times.
    Exactly so what jobs could non-merchant navy NSR officers do at sea which wouldn’t require them to be understudy for significant periods?

    Relief boarding officer



    Btw not knocking NSR officers it isn’t there fault but if they are to be put on OPVs they should be able to do something to help

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