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  1. #1
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    How to make the DF more cost effective / more efficient / aid economic recovery?

    Normally the threads are how we need jet fighters, MBTs, frigates etc etc

    The reality is when you have families sleeping in cars and hospitals refusing to take people on waiting lists the DF is way down the list of priorities.

    So how can the DF make meaningful changes to (further) improve cost effectiveness and efficiency?

    And/or aid the economic recovery?
    Last edited by DeV; 7th August 2015 at 11:20.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    ...So how can the DF make meaningful changes to (further) improve cost effectiveness and efficiency?
    allowances for doing a job you're already being paid to do.

    families incur extra costs while the DF member is away - it can be childcare, or taxi's, or half a hundred other things that there only being one adult/driver in the household makes more expensive/more of an arse than when there's two.

    however, a rough, back of a fag packet calculation regarding the Med SAR operation suggests that each member of the crew of LE Eithne received some €5850 in OPSA, totalling a spectacular and - producing nothing extra for the state over its normal wage bill - bill of €468,000.

    each 3 months of this OP costs the DF half a million Euro in allowances alone.

    (€65 per day, 80 crew, x 90 days - told you it was rough...)

    by all means provide a realistic allowance to take account of the additional costs to families when one of their number sods off for 3 months, or even just provide expences, but the best part of six grand each?

    how many desert/arid uniforms does half a million Euro buy? how many DMR's does it buy? how many flying hours for the AW-139's does it buy? how many 7.62 Minimi's does it buy?

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  4. #3
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    To be cruel axe the band the horsey school and well the reserve!! Now tbh id like to see the horses gone but which of my suggestions is most likely.

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  6. #4
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Easy enough plenty of rope in the Bord Snip reports ( and axing the reserve is up there with the rest )
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

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  8. #5
    BQMS Liachta Cultaca's Avatar
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    Yeah I think the equitation school would be first on my list, but of course I am biased. I think there is so much money in Irish Horse Racing that its a joke that the government is paying for this.

    Use of Military Medical installations and military medical personnel by the HSE, there are similar symbiosis that happen in the UK
    I went into an Italian restaurant and ordered dessert and they gave me tiramisu and a blindfolded horse and I said No, I said mask a pony (mascarpone)

  9. #6
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    Plenty of money can be saved:

    1: Axe the reserve straight away.

    2: Axe the equitation school.

    3: Axe 1/3 rd of the officers.

    Give all money saved to the Naval Service and Aer Corps.

    More ships, more helos and give real medium lift capability.

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  11. #7
    Major General ODIN's Avatar
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    Reduction to one brigade structure, made up of 5 Bn battle groups with associate CS and CSS units. This would see a reduction in the number of Generals, Colonels and Lt Colonels. Scrap Aer Corps taxi for ministers and government, and the airframes associated with providing the service. Scrap the PC9's too and refocus the Aer Corps to Battle Taxi's for the Army and Maritime duties for the NS. In fact, there might be an argument to scrap the AC completely and have an Army Air Wing and an NS Air Wing, again cutting the tonnes of brass that currently exists.

    Scrap the horsey school, and the practice of sending officers who lack degrees to Galway (or DIT as some have gone to) to get them post commissioning. Introduce short service commissions in a similar fashion to the British Army. If a legimate role for the Reserve cannot be found, scrap it. Procure equipment in conjunction with the UK to potentially reduce costs.
    What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

  12. #8
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Before everyone puts their favourite saddle on the hobbyhorse known as "Axe the reserve".

    Current ( 2015 estimates ) - - 677,291,000 € for Defence purposes in toto.
    RDF Pay ( Same estimates ) 2,150,000 €

    by my numbers it would save 0.3% of the current budget.

    Edit : forgot link to estimates http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/Master-Copyv1.pdf
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

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  14. #9
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    There presumably is a reason that the UK, USA and others are reducing their full-time componant and increasing the size of their reserves. This reason might be that the cost of maintaining the reserves is much smaller than maintaining full-time forces. They are effectively soldiers on zero-hour contracts...

    Just a thought...

    Regarding a role for the forces that would increase it's visibility and give VFM for the state, some sort of Genderamarie role providing back-up for Gardai on patrol, policing high-visibility large crowd numbers, back-up at road-blocks etc where an extra pair of hands is useful to do the heavy lifting, etc.

    Or is the whole Army constantly on pre-UN training, deployment, post-UN leave, or training?
    Last edited by Flamingo; 7th August 2015 at 16:40.
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    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
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  16. #10
    Viking HavocIRL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    Before everyone puts their favourite saddle on the hobbyhorse known as "Axe the reserve".

    Current ( 2015 estimates ) - - 677,291,000 € for Defence purposes in toto.
    RDF Pay ( Same estimates ) 2,150,000 €

    by my numbers it would save 0.3% of the current budget.

    Edit : forgot link to estimates http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/Master-Copyv1.pdf
    It's .3% of the budget but its still 2.15 million a year, every year.
    To close with and kill the enemy in all weather conditions, night and day and over any terrain

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  18. #11
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    It was noted on a previous report that on any day, at least 20% of the manpower of the DF is engaged in sport, courses, education and other non-gun-carrying/daily duty activity. It was also pointed out that to sustain the approximate 1000 pers abroad on UN duty, it essentially requires the input of the rest of the DF, except the NS/AC, in terms of training, leave, replacements, stores support, transport, medical,etc,etc. Personnel on routine leave and rest consume about 15 % of personnel per day. Then you add blips like unit-scale exercises, the NS in the Med, State ceremonies, unscheduled stuff like accidents and disasters......Personally, I'd chop the Pony Club tomorrow. Horse racing in Ireland is already well catered for. I'd have the Don on a diet, too, as a lot of it's activity can be done by civvies or needs direct integration with the Army. I'd also be taking the surgeon's knife to the Reserve, the Bands, the need to go overseas for courses (the DF is apparently unaware that manufacturers will come to you and train you at home!)

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  20. #12
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    I still agree on a need for a Reserve but only if the issue about job retention and pay for hours is realistically sorted. Otherwise, it's just an exercise in cynicism to treat reservists as free labour.

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  22. #13
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    the problem with short service commissions is that the person spends most of the time in training and generates very little time in actual service and in the case of pilots, it costs a mint for very little return.

  23. #14
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    That 2.15m is only wages though isn't it so there's still fuel, clothing, ammunition, wear & tear on weapons & vehicles, food and accommodation. So id imagine you'd need to double or treble the number for the actual cost of the reserve.
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  24. #15
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    it could also be using existing resources, the Horsey School could run courses for civvy land (and soon to be former soldiers) in various relevant disciplines, they could also do the same for inner city children who are into horses.

    Just playing devils advocate

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  26. #16
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    the devil is, of course, in the detail. When the DoD insists on cuts, it's usually the weakest and lowest-ranked who suffer. Apprentices, a tiny portion of the DF, got shafted in thepast.

  27. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    it could also be using existing resources, the Horsey School could run courses for civvy land (and soon to be former soldiers) in various relevant disciplines, they could also do the same for inner city children who are into horses.

    Just playing devils advocate
    Or, better still, they could just get rid of the future dog food corps altogether, as it's about as relevant as the baker rifle.
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
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  29. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODIN View Post
    Reduction to one brigade structure, made up of 5 Bn battle groups with associate CS and CSS units. This would see a reduction in the number of Generals, Colonels and Lt Colonels. Scrap Aer Corps taxi for ministers and government, and the airframes associated with providing the service. Scrap the PC9's too and refocus the Aer Corps to Battle Taxi's for the Army and Maritime duties for the NS. In fact, there might be an argument to scrap the AC completely and have an Army Air Wing and an NS Air Wing, again cutting the tonnes of brass that currently exists.

    Scrap the horsey school, and the practice of sending officers who lack degrees to Galway (or DIT as some have gone to) to get them post commissioning. Introduce short service commissions in a similar fashion to the British Army. If a legimate role for the Reserve cannot be found, scrap it. Procure equipment in conjunction with the UK to potentially reduce costs.
    I'm calling this one post of the year...
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

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  31. #19
    Viking HavocIRL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    It was noted on a previous report that on any day, at least 20% of the manpower of the DF is engaged in sport, courses, education and other non-gun-carrying/daily duty activity. It was also pointed out that to sustain the approximate 1000 pers abroad on UN duty, it essentially requires the input of the rest of the DF, except the NS/AC, in terms of training, leave, replacements, stores support, transport, medical,etc,etc. Personnel on routine leave and rest consume about 15 % of personnel per day. Then you add blips like unit-scale exercises, the NS in the Med, State ceremonies, unscheduled stuff like accidents and disasters......Personally, I'd chop the Pony Club tomorrow. Horse racing in Ireland is already well catered for. I'd have the Don on a diet, too, as a lot of it's activity can be done by civvies or needs direct integration with the Army. I'd also be taking the surgeon's knife to the Reserve, the Bands, the need to go overseas for courses (the DF is apparently unaware that manufacturers will come to you and train you at home!)
    Those personnel on sport, courses, education activites you will find are more than likely either doing duties on the weekend. Courses would be the exception to this but sometimes they have to do duties wherever they're conducting the course.
    To close with and kill the enemy in all weather conditions, night and day and over any terrain

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  33. #20
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    I think we can move on from top slicing, so what's the best approach: prioritise and efficiency improvements. I think the Gendarmerie is a much more cost-effective, and generally more efficient solution to some of the threats out there. Take 1500 Gardai/Airport Police or 1,000 infantry as a comparator and I think the argument would be much clearer. Arty and Transport are worth looking at from a RDF/private sector solution perspective. Could Arty replace its 105's with multiple-launch rockets (Greece must be looking to get rid of a few units) operated by RDF units and would this lead to reduced operating costs?
    Make a strategic decision not to send large infantry units overseas, change the offer using smaller, more specialist units which maintain the footprint but cost less.
    The other big saving could be made from the length of contracts of service, it would be interesting to see the comparative costs of making the average duration 5 years. Doubtless impactive on efficiency and capability but would this be a significant factor?
    Finally, severance might be worth putting under the microscope and re-balancing towards lump sums and away from pensions. This might not be a big saving but over time could reduce liability dramatically and have a positive effect on the economy.
    Finally, the debate has got to be around meaningful comparisons with similar sized countries with similar sized economies and threats. Don't see the point in bringing the UK, the USA or any G7 country into this, that's just comic book stuff and overly reliant on English-language sources.

  34. #21
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    1 x Gen, 1 x Col, 8/9 Lt Col -
    How many Sgt Majs, CS, Sgt and Cpls?
    Going to One Bde will be the death of a lot of NCO promotions.. Officers will always find ways to square away promotions, but many a young Pte/Cpl will find it very difficult to get promotion as a result.
    Again this obsession with a one bde... Will mean a complete lack of capability. As for the 'battle groups', what a load of toss..

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  36. #22
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    Well, whatever about the reserves, the consensus seems to be that the horses should go.

    Do they ever have any input in any ceremonial duties, or are the purely there for the RDS Horse Show?
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

  37. #23
    Viking HavocIRL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack08 View Post
    1 x Gen, 1 x Col, 8/9 Lt Col -
    How many Sgt Majs, CS, Sgt and Cpls?
    Going to One Bde will be the death of a lot of NCO promotions.. Officers will always find ways to square away promotions, but many a young Pte/Cpl will find it very difficult to get promotion as a result.
    Again this obsession with a one bde... Will mean a complete lack of capability. As for the 'battle groups', what a load of toss..
    It would mean the loss of a lot of senior officer ranks. However if you increase the number of Battalions or Companies therein there will always be NCO vacancies to fill. Likewise with training schools for senior NCO's.

    One thing I would absolutely love to get rid of and I think everyone would agree is the guaranteed set promotions within officer contracts. You can do the bare minimum and as long as you don't rock the boat you're guaranteed promotion to Comdt after a certain number of years. Meanwhile enlisted have to meet certain criteria to renew their contracts.
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  39. #24
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack08 View Post
    1 x Gen, 1 x Col, 8/9 Lt Col -
    How many Sgt Majs, CS, Sgt and Cpls?
    Going to One Bde will be the death of a lot of NCO promotions.. Officers will always find ways to square away promotions, but many a young Pte/Cpl will find it very difficult to get promotion as a result.
    Again this obsession with a one bde... Will mean a complete lack of capability. As for the 'battle groups', what a load of toss..
    Going to 1 Bde would mean a reduction in the army of an absolute min of 2000 personnel (if you put the remainder of the personnel into keeping the Bde up to full correct establishment) across the ranks. There will therefore be less privates to look for promotion.

    It would also question the need for so many personnel in the DFTC (eg give the MOWAGs to the Bde and get rid of 1 Mech, give the MRVs & CRVs to the Cav Sqn (and scrap the Scorpions, do you need a fully fledged corps school when there is only 1 unit) and DFHQ (do you need all the Directorates, do you need a Lt Gen as COS and 2 Maj Gens?

    Personally what is definitely needed (either way) is a look at the rank structure within the establishment
    Last edited by DeV; 8th August 2015 at 08:57.

  40. #25
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    TBH starting this thread, I was thinking more along the lines of reducing unnecessary duplication of effort (eg an e-ration indent, an externally accessible e-learning system,etc) and making things more efficient (eg reduce the need for the CoC to approve everything, with a lot more power delegated)

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