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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    A lot of the problem being those who served with him are dead and buried and most of those in charge of such events have no idea who the man was.....but thats not to say he shouldn't be given the accolades he was entitled to at his rank.

    The NS tends to be a more transient than the army where very few live their lives in the local area after minimal periods of service and indeed those who do stick around afterwards usually have retired after quite an amount of service have an affiliation to persons they have served with.

    Now the issue of representation, funerals etc, Ireland has changed and a funeral may not be the vent it was in former years, I don't do them, not even for family , in my service days I hated them as I remember as a rating being detailed to attend funerals of people whom I had no knowledge of, just to 'represent the navy'.... I probably hated the deceased regardless of ever knowing them as a result.

    IMHO, if the respects due are rendered by the service as laid down well and good, but the day of detailing people to attend funerals is long past and should remain so.

    I attended the funeral of a relative of mine back in 2000 , a former Lt Cdr, and while there were some there who did respect him and were his friends, there were also a large portion in attendance who were checking he had actually died. The pall bearers were ratings standing around in the rain on a sunday morning who had absolutely no interest in the event ,

    Funerals are for the families, the deceased won't know!
    For all the reasons you mention, including inconvenience, the Services should honour their dead. It reflects ethos and demonstrates the nature of Service Life and honour due to those that served or are serving. Other Nations do it well and our service people should get their due honour specifically and annually.

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  3. #102
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    For all the reasons you mention, including inconvenience, the Services should honour their dead. It reflects ethos and demonstrates the nature of Service Life and honour due to those that served or are serving. Other Nations do it well and our service people should get their due honour specifically and annually.
    Those who died are remembered annually by various events held by the state and as these are state events they need the attendance of the various arms of the defence forces, no problem here.

    But detailing youngfellas to attend funerals of former servicemen who served 40 years ago is a non runner. There may be volunteers or guys released from duties to attend certain events such as burials during the working day, again all fitting... but the day of a fifty two seater coach full of the various' courses' detailed to attend the funeral of someone they never heard of is wrong especially if the various ranks above them are more noticeable by their absence than their presence.
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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  5. #103
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    The American system is worth looking at, where all eligible veterans are entitled to a military funeral (and headstone). My brother in law (an ex National Guard chaplain) officiates at quite a few.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mili..._United_States
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

  6. #104
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    With all due respect to the dead, their families and their service it probably should be done

    But there isn’t sufficient personnel to do current operational tasks without overburdening already underpaid and overburdened serving personnel with a resultant effect on retention

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  8. #105
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    But detailing youngfellas to attend funerals of former servicemen who served 40 years ago is a non runner. There may be volunteers or guys released from duties to attend certain events such as burials during the working day, again all fitting... but the day of a fifty two seater coach full of the various' courses' detailed to attend the funeral of someone they never heard of is wrong especially if the various ranks above them are more noticeable by their absence than their presence.
    I disagree with you, the provision of funeral honours to retired members is an important part of demonstrating respect for the service and goes someway to demonstrating to these youngfellas that they are part of a larger family. Even if they do not realise it at the time they will in later years. I have carried many a stranger's coffin while in uniform and it is really only now when I am off the age that relatives and friends begin to pop off that I realise the importance of such displays of respect are to the family. You should not be forgotten when your time in uniform is over.

    Now the uniform representation does not have to be more than is required per the regulations.

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  10. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    I disagree with you, the provision of funeral honours to retired members is an important part of demonstrating respect for the service and goes someway to demonstrating to these youngfellas that they are part of a larger family. Even if they do not realise it at the time they will in later years. I have carried many a stranger's coffin while in uniform and it is really only now when I am off the age that relatives and friends begin to pop off that I realise the importance of such displays of respect are to the family. You should not be forgotten when your time in uniform is over.

    Now the uniform representation does not have to be more than is required per the regulations.
    A balanced view.

  11. #107
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    I prefer the US Military solution - a dedicated unit whose job it is to deal with graves and funerals. Such a thing could easily be done in Ireland if we had the manpower etc. but is a big ask in the current climate.

    A dedicated Section including Sergeant & officer who would do a 4/6 month stint, they would do their normal day to day job, but have no duties other than to be on standby for funeral and related duties. After 4/6 months, it would be passed onto the next section.

    Then again, given the manpower crisis, this is just wishful thinking.

  12. #108
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    That strikes me as a bit depressing. These people joined to be soldiers, sailors or airmen, not pall bearers.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  14. #109
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    Ordinarily, once a family express their desire for the DF to be involved in a funeral, usually through friends or contacts in their old unit, the Bde RSM would look after the rest. In the NS, I would assume this falls on the Master at Arms.

    Even token attendance is greatly appreciated by the families.

    However, there has to be a line in the sand somewhere. It is 20 / 21 years service.

    A man that was a recruit for a week and left and dies 70 years later should not be afforded the same levels of respect as someone with 42 years service.

    However, the burden of responsibility must fall on the family to initiate the process by making contact. Not every exer wants to have military at their funeral and the organisation cannot be responsible for monitoring if someone that retired 30+ years ago has passed away.

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  16. #110
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    That strikes me as a bit depressing. These people joined to be soldiers, sailors or airmen, not pall bearers.
    There is no difference between this and carrying out a guard of honour for some ambassador presenting his credentials.

  17. #111
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    True, but those who do GOH for ambassadors get to do other duties too.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  19. #112
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    [
    QUOTE]However, there has to be a line in the sand somewhere. It is 20 / 21 years service.

    A man that was a recruit for a week and left and dies 70 years later should not be afforded the same levels of respect as someone with 42 years service
    There is the crux of the issue, why should the man who turned up got paid for 42 years get any more than the man who decided it wasn't for him, the guy who was in for 42 years could have been a waste of space while the other man could have achieved great things beyond the DF

    You should not be forgotten when your time in uniform is over.[/QUOTE]

    99% are and of that 99% , 100% of them have never voiced an opinion or care.. because they are dead!


    There is no difference between this and carrying out a guard of honour for some ambassador presenting his credentials.
    Huge difference in that GoH s are carried out within the working day where as most funeral attendances are outside normal working hours . Few will remember but there was a time when units in the Southern Command during the late 70s and early 80s were at funerals two and three times per week as they had served in the War of Independence or Civil War and more blank ammunition was expended at gravesides than in annual unit exercises. It was fitting but it ate into man power so much that they could have established a permanent funeral party

    Will they turn up when I'm gone...no

    Would I want them there ......no

    For the amount of service I gave should my family request a presence..again no
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

  20. #113
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    Cork used to have a Land rover just to tow the Gun Carriage on which a coffin would sit.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  21. #114
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    If someone joined at 16, 21 years service and dies at say 75.

    There will be very very few still serving who will have served with that person.

    That isn’t to say that they shouldn’t get Something but that is reality.

  22. #115
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    It still does. Maintained by the BAR.

    It is only used for personnel who die while in service. Once you retire(if you have your 20 done) you are entitled to a bearer party and a dressed coffin that's it. And that's should be enough. The bearer party will have been detailed and chances are won't know the exer but if you have a good Sgt I/C he/she will have them rehearsed to death before hand to make sure we give that Exer a good send off.After all at some stage you reap what you sow.

    I have done more Military funerals than I have had decent dinners in the cookhouse.Everyone from former Thaoisigh to young lads who died in service and everything in between. ALL deserved the highest standard of drill and deportment and it makes a HUGE difference to the families. I don't agree with detailing young soldiers to be mourners at family funerals but having buried members of my own family looking down from the pulpit when delivering a eulogy and seeing a "green sea" sitting at the back of the church was a big comfort AND was commented on favourably afterwards by other family members.

    Now here is the but.

    I am serving. Those people were and are my comrades.They serve with me and know me.They were there to support me and mine,not because they knew my deceased family members. There is NO way people should be detailed to attend a funeral of someone they never served with,who was retired at the time of death unless they are part of the actual funeral ceremony. Period.

    Now having said that I have put it in my will that if I die while in service I want certain people to carry my coffin and I want full Military honours. And the funeral will be on...........



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  24. #116
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    When I die, I want to be taken to the icecreamatorioum, for a traditional sundae service...

    (David Sedaris)
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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  26. #117
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    I think we are all in agreement that people shouldn't be detailed to be mourners. The bearer party & firing squad are another matter.

    Getting back to the funeral in question, I spoke with a few people who attended it and they were very complimentary of it and the bearer party. Mostly it was the sight of the full church that reminded them of when they lived on the island.

  27. #118
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    My organisation, a government agency, has a particularly strange tradition. Some of us are uniformed, most are not. Many rotate through uniform during their career.
    If a member, who worked at any time in a uniformed capacity, dies, their colleagues attend in uniform, even if their current duties are no longer uniformed.
    The result is those attending leave the funeral with the impression that my organisation has way more uniformed members than it actually has....
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  29. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    My organisation, a government agency, has a particularly strange tradition. Some of us are uniformed, most are not. Many rotate through uniform during their career.
    If a member, who worked at any time in a uniformed capacity, dies, their colleagues attend in uniform, even if their current duties are no longer uniformed.
    The result is those attending leave the funeral with the impression that my organisation has way more uniformed members than it actually has....
    The navy at this time is suffering from a shortage of trained personnel to take , or keep ships at sea. This is not a unique situation, as our neighbours have 30 operational ships but also have the same number of laid-up surface ships and submarines cluttering up a number of naval bases, that may never go to sea again. They do have a refurbished destroyer, Hunt class MCV and another single role minehunter all used for Static live seamanship and ship training for reserves, cadets, and general service training. The idea would be refurbish P31 and reinstate her flight deck and use her for general training alongside and flight training at anchor in the lower harbour. Then subject to a negative survey take her out and conduct a sinkex. However I believe she could last another 25 years. Conduct all training as if she was at sea, with full catering and night exercises where required.
    Last edited by ancientmariner; 8th January 2020 at 19:35.

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  31. #120
    The Auld Fella A/TEL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The navy at this time is suffering from a shortage of trained personnel to take , or keep ships at sea. This is not a unique situation, as our neighbours have 30 operational ships but also have the same number of laid-up surface ships and submarines cluttering up a number of naval bases, that may never go to sea again. They do have a refurbished destroyer, Hunt class MCV and another single role minehunter all used for Static live seamanship and ship training for reserves, cadets, and general service training. The idea would be refurbish P31 and reinstate her flight deck and use her for general training alongside and flight training at anchor in the lower harbour. Then subject to a negative survey take her out and conduct a sinkex. However I believe she could last another 25 years. Conduct all training as if she was at sea, with full catering and night exercises where required.
    P31 will not last another 25 years. Her hull and systems are outdated and engines are on their last legs.

    The money is simply not available to support 10 seagoing ships.

    I do agree it should be retained alongside as a training ship, similar to the RN training ship HMS Bristol.

    It could then last 25 years easily enough, Just turn her around every year for a clean and drydock her every 4-5 years.

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  33. #121
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Why when there are existing simulators in NMCI which would be far more cost effective?

  34. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by A/TEL View Post
    P31 will not last another 25 years. Her hull and systems are outdated and engines are on their last legs.

    The money is simply not available to support 10 seagoing ships.

    I do agree it should be retained alongside as a training ship, similar to the RN training ship HMS Bristol.

    It could then last 25 years easily enough, Just turn her around every year for a clean and drydock her every 4-5 years.
    That is exactly what I would recommend and give an edge to personnel in shipboard training before voyaging.

  35. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Why when there are existing simulators in NMCI which would be far more cost effective?
    Simulators can only go so far. Nothing beats having an actual ship under your feet when you are learning basic seamanship. Same is true for all branches. NMCI is set up mainly for the Merchant marine, but many of the systems NS trainees would be expected to use are unique to the NS.
    While the ship is there, use it as a floating classroom, equipped with the same equipment sensors and systems found on all other naval vessels.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  36. #124
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Simulators can only go so far. Nothing beats having an actual ship under your feet when you are learning basic seamanship. Same is true for all branches. NMCI is set up mainly for the Merchant marine, but many of the systems NS trainees would be expected to use are unique to the NS.
    While the ship is there, use it as a floating classroom, equipped with the same equipment sensors and systems found on all other naval vessels.
    Never been in it but it is a joint venture including the NS so why not (or at the Naval College).

    What use would it be tied up permanently? Take it out and put it ashore and then you don’t have to deal with the upkeep of the hull etc?

  37. #125
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    we are all going for the pints...

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