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  1. #176
    C/S Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibenji View Post
    HMS Defender is approaching cobh this morning
    Making a port call?

  2. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Indeed. To be relevant you must stay afloat and be equipped to the required standard . Shrinking or expedient Defence budgets leads
    to Jam today and no Bread tomorrow. The last people to run a Navy are those over extended with trying to keep their popularity and jobs.
    And interesting that these ships are being 'forward based' on Liverpool, Cardiff and Newcastle.
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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  4. #178
    Sergeant Major EUFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spider View Post
    And interesting that these ships are being 'forward based' on Liverpool, Cardiff and Newcastle.
    Not so surprising seeing fishing is a major Brexit issue and that Scotland have their own fishery protection. It must be remembered that the UK will leave the 1964 London Fisheries Convention also on the 29th March 2019. This means that the there is now a need for them to control more their parts of the Irish and Celtic Seas.

    Given that over the past few years the highest number of fishing offenders we have caught have been British we can expect the NS to have its hands full next year and for many to come.

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  6. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Not so surprising seeing fishing is a major Brexit issue and that Scotland have their own fishery protection. It must be remembered that the UK will leave the 1964 London Fisheries Convention also on the 29th March 2019. This means that the there is now a need for them to control more their parts of the Irish and Celtic Seas.

    Given that over the past few years the highest number of fishing offenders we have caught have been British we can expect the NS to have its hands full next year and for many to come.
    Announced last year
    https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media...2017020717.pdf

  7. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    It is possible that original reciprocal rights would be reactivated, even by quota or licence. In pre-EU days the British registered craft could fish up to the 3 mile limit and other Europeans up to 6 miles. The waters were muddied when Spanish trawlers were flagged as British with a British captain Emeritus on Board with a couple of British Crew and the rest all Spaniards, often exceeding the numbers laid down, in order to be designated a British Crew. Our job when boarding was to muster crew and passports. This occasionally led to detention or sanction for not being a de facto Brit.
    Patrol needs during EU membership was quite demanding because of third bloc countries, transshipping cargo, etc. The British home porting of Rivers and their retention in service is fakish for general bouyancy and to be seen to be manning our pumps at this critical juncture etc, etc.

  8. #181
    Sergeant Major EUFighter's Avatar
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    Even if fishing only represents an extremely tiny percentage of the UK economy and that the vast majority is exported to the EU we can expect it to become a major issue during the trade negotiations, if we even get that far.

    It is very unlikely the UK would want to reactivate any rights, remember 100yrs on we still have not finalised the control of Lough Foyle or Carlingford Lough!!

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  10. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Even if fishing only represents an extremely tiny percentage of the UK economy and that the vast majority is exported to the EU we can expect it to become a major issue during the trade negotiations, if we even get that far.

    It is very unlikely the UK would want to reactivate any rights, remember 100yrs on we still have not finalised the control of Lough Foyle or Carlingford Lough!!
    I agree it is a major issue of establishing control rights. Our neighbours, on the other island want to be on good terms, and allow us to play in their garden when on patrols and transiting Northern waters to the East Coast. We use Lough Foyle to anchor at Greencastle / Moville. Likewise in Carlingford at Greenore.

  11. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    I agree it is a major issue of establishing control rights. Our neighbours, on the other island want to be on good terms, and allow us to play in their garden when on patrols and transiting Northern waters to the East Coast. We use Lough Foyle to anchor at Greencastle / Moville. Likewise in Carlingford at Greenore.
    The talk from our nearest neighbour is not exactly encouraging about our future relationship. What we have to remember also is that the 200nm EEZ was only adopted in 1982 and that the UK only defined it in law in the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. Thus many of the tradional water both our fishing fleets used were before this time outside the territorial waters and thus no conflict. While the Uk was in the CFP also no problem, after March 2019 we will have to see what happens but might mean we will need all the NS vessels we can get our hands on. Let's see.

  12. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    The talk from our nearest neighbour is not exactly encouraging about our future relationship. What we have to remember also is that the 200nm EEZ was only adopted in 1982 and that the UK only defined it in law in the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. Thus many of the tradional water both our fishing fleets used were before this time outside the territorial waters and thus no conflict. While the Uk was in the CFP also no problem, after March 2019 we will have to see what happens but might mean we will need all the NS vessels we can get our hands on. Let's see.
    There's also the issue that we struck down the agreement with the UK in regards to the NI fishing fleet having access to our waters from memory, it's waiting for a new DaÃ*l Act to restore that, so we could have issues there as well apart from gB based hulls.

  13. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    There's also the issue that we struck down the agreement with the UK in regards to the NI fishing fleet having access to our waters from memory, it's waiting for a new DaÃ*l Act to restore that, so we could have issues there as well apart from gB based hulls.
    Although the EEZ was born in 1976, as usual it took many years to ratify it legally in 1982. We currently have signed up to scores of International Agreements but have ratified very few due to penny pinching and lack of manpower. The Government want to allow N.I vessels have the same rights as all Irish vessels but the IFPO spokes people are throwing a wobbler. We are not good at sharing our stirabout!!

  14. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Although the EEZ was born in 1976, as usual it took many years to ratify it legally in 1982. We currently have signed up to scores of International Agreements but have ratified very few due to penny pinching and lack of manpower. The Government want to allow N.I vessels have the same rights as all Irish vessels but the IFPO spokes people are throwing a wobbler. We are not good at sharing our stirabout!!
    With whom will we negotiate? Is fisheries not one of the areas that has been devolved to the regional government?

  15. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    With whom will we negotiate? Is fisheries not one of the areas that has been devolved to the regional government?
    Well, as I understand it we have Dept. of Agriculture, Food, and Marine (DAFM) who oversee our negotiated compliance with the Common Fishery Policy in the EU on the share out of fish species and conservancy measures. They also negotiate with the domestic fishery interests to maximise outputs from agreed quota. I suppose sharing that with another on island group is raising the spectre of having to share.

  16. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Well, as I understand it we have Dept. of Agriculture, Food, and Marine (DAFM) who oversee our negotiated compliance with the Common Fishery Policy in the EU on the share out of fish species and conservancy measures. They also negotiate with the domestic fishery interests to maximise outputs from agreed quota. I suppose sharing that with another on island group is raising the spectre of having to share.
    Our side is clear and always has been, what is not clear is with whom from the other side will we have to negotiate? Is it for Welch waters the Assembly in Cardiff as they are responsible locally for fisheries, the same goes for Scottish waters with Holyrood being responsible for their waters. The Scots even have their own protect vessels and patrol aircraft.

  17. #189
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    See there's reports that Brazil will take up the Clyde sometime next year after she's replaced.

  18. #190
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    Probably the hardest worked ship of the class, has spent her entire life in the South Atlantic. Probably wouldn't be economical to bring her back to work in Local waters.
    Why Brazil though? It's not like the Brazilian economy needs second hand OPVs. The Largest navy in South America isn't short of ships either. Probably not compatable with the Amazonas class.
    That's before you even get into the ethics of dealing with the new Brazilian administration, while at the same time remembering when the ship was denied entry to Rio de Janeiro because of how Brazil felt about Argentina's claim to the Malvinas.
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  19. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Our side is clear and always has been, what is not clear is with whom from the other side will we have to negotiate? Is it for Welch waters the Assembly in Cardiff as they are responsible locally for fisheries, the same goes for Scottish waters with Holyrood being responsible for their waters. The Scots even have their own protect vessels and patrol aircraft.
    I presume for our own waters it is us and the Office of the NI Secretary and the NI Fishing interests. Outside of that it would have to be UK Dept. of Marine as the man paying the piper and calling the tune.

  20. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    I presume for our own waters it is us and the Office of the NI Secretary and the NI Fishing interests. Outside of that it would have to be UK Dept. of Marine as the man paying the piper and calling the tune.
    For English waters it would be the Marine Management Organisation which comes under the Dept for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Gove's department!!). For the others it would be the local governments but as there is currently no functioning goverment in Stormont it would default to the NI Secretary and her office. All means that just for the UK waters we would have at present 4 sets of negotiations. May's government did try to steal the powers but that has not been a complete sucess.

    There could be such fun to come, at present they are all part of our common EU CFP, but after March what could happen??? Imagine the Scots decide only Scotish owned and registered boats can fish in their waters! That the Welch do the same, it could be a whole can of worns that they could open.

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  22. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    For English waters it would be the Marine Management Organisation which comes under the Dept for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Gove's department!!). For the others it would be the local governments but as there is currently no functioning goverment in Stormont it would default to the NI Secretary and her office. All means that just for the UK waters we would have at present 4 sets of negotiations. May's government did try to steal the powers but that has not been a complete sucess.

    There could be such fun to come, at present they are all part of our common EU CFP, but after March what could happen??? Imagine the Scots decide only Scotish owned and registered boats can fish in their waters! That the Welch do the same, it could be a whole can of worns that they could open.
    Elements of what you say are probable for opening gambits at negotiations. The Scots did try for ownership for parts of North Sea Oil. High Courts are very interested in Law but even more so in precedent and history. Like Brexit any reconstruct could produce a Frankenstein along with the worms?

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  24. #194
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmitÃ* View Post
    Probably the hardest worked ship of the class, has spent her entire life in the South Atlantic. Probably wouldn't be economical to bring her back to work in Local waters.
    Why Brazil though? It's not like the Brazilian economy needs second hand OPVs. The Largest navy in South America isn't short of ships either. Probably not compatable with the Amazonas class.
    That's before you even get into the ethics of dealing with the new Brazilian administration, while at the same time remembering when the ship was denied entry to Rio de Janeiro because of how Brazil felt about Argentina's claim to the Malvinas.
    Its not unique to ships. Brazil just got two pages in 'Airforces Monthly' around aircraft purchases...money no object it would seem
    Time for another break I think......

  25. #195
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    A very nice analysis (with loads of photos) of the newest River Class, HMS Medway.

    https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/up-...ip-hms-medway/
    JUNE 28, 2019
    Up close with the Royal Navy’s newest ship – HMS Medway
    HMS Medway arrived in her base port of Portsmouth for the first time on 17 June. She is in the process of working up before commissioning into the RN in September. We went on board to speak to her officers and look around the newest ship in the fleet.

    Growing the fleet
    Medway is the second of the five Batch II river class OPVs. What makes her somewhat unique is that she is the first new ship to join the RN for many years that is actually an addition to the strength of the fleet, rather than just a replacement for a decommissioned vessel. (Thanks to the sensible decision to retain the Batch I vessels). The first BII OPV, HMS Forth, is a direct replacement for HMS Clyde and will take over her role as permanent Falklands guard ship in the latter part of this year.

    From one perspective, the Batch II OPVs may be seen as symptomatic of UK defence procurement failures, hideously expensive and comparing badly with more capable foreign equivalents. Their hefty price tag was paid to keep the shipbuilding skills base alive during delays to the start of the Type 26 frigate programme. Broadly speaking, this was the least-worst choice in the situation created by successive governments’ unwillingness to place regular shipbuilding orders. The more positive side of the story is the Type 26 design already proving to be a global success while the RN is getting five modern vessels which can make a contribution to reducing the workload on the rest of the fleet.
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  27. #196
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    [QUOTE=na grohmiti;468593]A very nice analysis (with loads of photos) of the newest River Class, HMS Medway.

    Nice outline of the new River Class, somewhat narrower in beam than the p60's. The crewing arrangements are interesting an require flexibility ashore to manage Crew cycles. The proposal is to have a three watch crew structure to maintain two watches on board and one watch in training, leave etc. but more interesting is a crew cycle of 8 weeks on board and 4 weeks ashore in proximity to families. The arrangement would need study to see how singletons and command are handled in the proposed system. Proportionately they seem to carry a lot of Av. fuel and make a lot of FW to small tanks. I wonder how the grey water storage is to be managed?

  28. #197
    CQMS spider's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=ancientmariner;468614]
    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    A very nice analysis (with loads of photos) of the newest River Class, HMS Medway.

    Nice outline of the new River Class, somewhat narrower in beam than the p60's. The crewing arrangements are interesting an require flexibility ashore to manage Crew cycles. The proposal is to have a three watch crew structure to maintain two watches on board and one watch in training, leave etc. but more interesting is a crew cycle of 8 weeks on board and 4 weeks ashore in proximity to families. The arrangement would need study to see how singletons and command are handled in the proposed system. Proportionately they seem to carry a lot of Av. fuel and make a lot of FW to small tanks. I wonder how the grey water storage is to be managed?
    I believe the same system has been in place with the B1's...and some elements of the Mine Hunting Force.

    The XO takes command when the CO is on leave.

    It seems to work and ensures a decent work / life balance.
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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