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  1. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    Of course this all pre the government realising it needs to find 3 Bn to fund rural broadband
    Look at who the new SofS Defence is - the MOD isn't going to be losing any of its budget anytime while Maudant is a political threat to either May or any of her potential successors.

  2. #427
    Rittmeister Herald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    Of course this all pre the government realising it needs to find 3 Bn to fund rural broadband
    What??

  3. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    Of course this all pre the government realising it needs to find 3 Bn to fund rural broadband
    Mothball the Air Corps sure. Worth it so young Johnny from Schull can play Fortnite.

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  5. #429
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    Got the threads mixed up. Thought we were talking about the next Irish Navy ship.

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  7. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    Got the threads mixed up. Thought we were talking about the next Irish Navy ship.
    Maybe we are.....
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  9. #431
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Maybe we are.....
    The builders are not putting it on the market it would appear.
    Time for another break I think......

  10. #432
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Looks like the 250m cap is being dropped with reports that "government furnished equipment" will be removed from the costings. Guessing they came to the conclusion that whatever you could get for 250m wasn't worth it.
    I wonder if it is that the Arrowhead 140 ticks the boxes yet cannot be acquired for anything near the 250m bottom line.

    The Indonesians are looking at locally building two Iver Huitfeld F-370's from the design licence holder OMT of the Type 31e Babcock consortium. The unit build cost is circa USD$360m and allegedly will include some cross decking of recent or refurnished systems from their existing Yani-class (50 year old refitted and upgraded Dutch built Leanders) such as the 76Oto as well similar systems to their recent local build of the Simga 10514's - so TACTICOS and SMART-S Mk2 should be in the mix.

    Now if the Indonesians are thinking of doing a local build Iver F370 and cross decking some existing gear, plus adding GFE gear which they already have existing sustainment contracts in place and training per the Sigma's and are still 30m quid over 250m indicates that at a UK yard an Arrowhead 140 even with cross-decking some Type 23 systems is an impossibility and that the RN/MoD penny has dropped from a great height.
    Last edited by Anzac; 10th May 2019 at 10:41.

  11. #433
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    Something from Babcock on the Arrowhead 140, though given they were meant to be going to the 120 it's interesting that they are still promoting the 140:


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  13. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Something from Babcock on the Arrowhead 140, though given they were meant to be going to the 120 it's interesting that they are still promoting the 140:

    call me cynical, but it's a very pretty Plastikard model, and is firing a broadside even a thing anymore?
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

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  15. #435
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey View Post
    call me cynical, but it's a very pretty Plastikard model, and is firing a broadside even a thing anymore?
    Only if you have more than one turret/cupola that can be fired to the same side to bring weight of fire on a target. Some older WW11 ships could deliver a 4 gun or 8 gun broadside. Interval of firing was curtailed to await time of flight to observe fall of shot, to allow correction for the next broadside. The other conundrum was the accuracy of the second and subsequent rounds was affected by the propellant explosions on the turret mount.
    The 140 offerings is rather similar to others with the idea of a frigate in a variety of roles, or a super OPV/Mother ship with boats, insertion craft, ROV's and room for containerised assets and extra personnel/troops. In all roles it would be at least 4 different ships as they would only be adaptable at time of build. I don't like the loiter speed of 12 knots, we have always used 14knots.
    Last edited by ancientmariner; 24th May 2019 at 22:06.

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  17. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Something from Babcock on the Arrowhead 140, though given they were meant to be going to the 120 it's interesting that they are still promoting the 140:

    Thanks for sharing that.

    So thats where Mark Harvey ex RNZN ended up.
    Last edited by Anzac; 24th May 2019 at 23:26.

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  19. #437
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    The Save the Royal Navy Blog published a new article on July 5.

    In focus – the Arrowhead 140 Type 31e frigate candidate

    https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/in-...ate-candidate/

    The Huitfeldts are not in the same ASW class as a Type 26 and most critically their engines and machinery are not raft-mounted to reduce sound and vibration radiated into the water. There is space to allow Arrowhead to have raft-mounted machinery but this would have to be specified by the customer at the outset of construction.

    That extra space for raft mounting will be significant if this is to be exported because ASW capability will be an essential requirement for most Navies.

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  21. #438
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    A bust week for the contenders for the Type31, first H&W,
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-49291622

    now Ferguson,
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland...iness-49299585

    I think it is fairly certain that it the Type31 does get built it will be from the Mersey

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  23. #439
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    The Telegraph is leaking that it's Babcock that will win the contract for the 31's with the Arrowhead 140 design, will be interesting to see how that plays out given the plan to block build, sadly behind a paywall:
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...-shipbuilding/

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  25. #440
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    Would anyone bother paying for the torygraph, really?
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  27. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Would anyone bother paying for the torygraph, really?
    Torys?
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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  29. #442
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    Well the DT got it right and Babcock have won!

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland...iness-49670332

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  31. #443
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    So Scotland will be building 18 vessels for the RN between 2015 and 2035.
    (8 T26, 5 T31e, 5 River batch 2.)
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
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  32. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    So Scotland will be building 18 vessels for the RN between 2015 and 2035.
    (8 T26, 5 T31e, 5 River batch 2.)
    Well given that England is building the end of the Astutes and the Dreadnoughts I think it probably balances out.

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  34. #445
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    Seeing as the Scottish government now own Ferguson, I wonder how the English will feel about Republic of Scotland made ships?

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  36. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herald View Post
    Seeing as the Scottish government now own Ferguson, I wonder how the English will feel about Republic of Scotland made ships?
    I wonder how will Harland and Wolff Belfast fare in the distribution of British Government shipbuilding contracts. They could build the N.S., MRV based on an adaption of the Danish design or any other suitable design. It would sooth some brows in NI.
    Last edited by ancientmariner; 13th September 2019 at 08:28.

  37. #447
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    Unfortunately H&W have the same shipbuilding capacity as VCD. A staff of about 50 was engaged dealing with wind farm and offshore ancillary works. I think Hurst Point was the last ship to be built there, and that was over a decade ago. The skillset required to build ships has moved on to other heavy engineering industry. It would take a few years to get H&W back in the shipbuilding business. Meanwhile hm govt is happy for the yard to gradually become a Titanic theme park.
    Without constant refit and repair work to keep machinery fresh, it is impractical to reopen a closed yard. Babcock let appledore close, and that was far more modern than H&W, while they had potential work on their horizon.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  39. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herald View Post
    Seeing as the Scottish government now own Ferguson, I wonder how the English will feel about Republic of Scotland made ships?
    Going by some comments sections I've seen (on both media coverage of this and other sites coverage)...not particularly well.

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  41. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    I wonder how will Harland and Wolff Belfast fare in the distribution of British Government shipbuilding contracts. They could build the N.S., MRV based on an adaption of the Danish design or any other suitable design. It would sooth some brows in NI.
    Unfortunately for both HW and Ferguson, it seems they will have to bid for blocks of work, I can't remember where I saw it, possibly the FT, but in the last 24 hours the head of Babcock was quoted as saying this, also he intimated that Camell Laird could also bid.

  42. #450
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    Some more details on the ship coming out also. A combination of Bofors 57mm Mk110 and 40mm as main and secondary armament, a huge change for the Modern RN.
    https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/mor...rigate-emerge/

    Babcock says they are open to sharing work around the UK in line with the National Shipbuilding Strategy. Both Ferguson (Clyde) and Harland and Wolff (Belfast) were part of the original Team 31e consortium but are in poor shape. The consortium members are not guaranteed a workshare but would be allowed to bid to build blocks. Babcock insists they won’t take risks with the programme and any commercial partners would be subject to the usual financial due diligence. Cammell Laird says they are not tied exclusively to the BAE Systems Leander bid and would be open to working on Type 31.
    In the era of the ‘swarm attack’ either by small boats or UAVs, light-medium calibre gunnery is back in fashion. The Type 31 will mount at least 3 modern gun systems which are well suited to dealing with multiple small targets.

    The heaviest weapon will be a Bofors medium-calibre 57mm Mk 110 Mod 0 gun which is already in service with the US and several other navies. It can deliver up to 4 rounds per second and has a range of about 17km. The whole system, including 1,000 rounds weighs around 14 tonnes. This is a very different weapon to the much heavier 114mm (4.5”) Mk 8 that delivers a single shell every 2 seconds and has equipped the majority of RN frigates since the 1970s.

    The Mk 110 is not optimised for supporting troops ashore but for multiple and unpredictable targets. Different ammunition types can be readily reselected, including Pre-fragmented, Programmable and Proximity-fused (3P) ammunition. It has a useful airburst mode to defend against boat swarms but could switch to defend against aircraft or missiles using proximity fuses or heavier targets using delayed action fuses. (The vast range of sophisticated modern ammunition types are a complex subject well beyond the scope of this article).
    Its high rate of fire means the 57mm actually delivers a greater weight of explosive onto the target than the latest Oto Melara 76mm gun. The gun mount holds 120 rounds but can be replenished by a 3-man crew in the gun bay on the deck below.

    The Type 31 will not be fitted with 20mm Phalanx CIWS but instead will mount two Bofors 40mm Mk 4 guns. These lightweight 2.3-tonne, non-deck penetrating mounts can deliver 5 rounds per second out to about 12.5km and are designed to respond rapidly at a wide range of elevations. By delivering heavier shells further away from the ship the Mk 4 is superior to Phalanx in some ways. They provide defence against air and missile attack but use the same sophisticated 3P type ammunition as the 57mm so can quickly change to engage small boat or UAV threats. 100 rounds are held in the gun ready to fire with the ability to shift between different types of ammunition.

    Bofors is owned by BAE Systems so the Type 31 decision is not all bad news for the company, with an order for at least 15 gun systems and ammunition coming for manufacture in Scandinavia and the US.



    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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