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  1. #251
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    Great ship for the money at 250m Cap. However phrases like open Architecture and scalable weapon and sensor outfit leave one thinking of Budget drift. I still think that 6 to 9 years is too long and has fiscal reasons rather than technical difficulty.

  2. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Great ship for the money at 250m Cap. However phrases like open Architecture and scalable weapon and sensor outfit leave one thinking of Budget drift. I still think that 6 to 9 years is too long and has fiscal reasons rather than technical difficulty.
    Don't see why "Open Architecture" and "Scalable oufits" are budget drift indicators, a) they're common phrases for development now and b) for ships that are meant to be exportable they have to be. One of the issues highlighted before on RN hulls was that they were UK specific hardware/systems that other navies didn't want. It was why the 26's were meant to be more "generic" so for example the RAN could replace Artisan with a US based system. As for the length of time of development the Head of the RN suggested meeting a 6 year development would make the 31 one of the quickest developments since WW2 (and while the 26's are taking 9 years the project itself is several decades long). And again it doesn't seem out of line both the French and Italian "Light Frigate Programs" are looking like only coming on stream around then as well (the Light Italian maybe 2021 but that's the basic version)

  3. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    To a landlubber like myself it seems that they are going for something more like the dutch holland class opv than a conventional frigate.

  4. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    To a landlubber like myself it seems that they are going for something more like the dutch holland class opv than a conventional frigate.
    To me it looks very similar in thought to the French and Italian plans (though with different styles of course), think something like the Venator spec (for example) that would be able to range from 57mm to 127mm and different VLS numbers for example.

  5. #255
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    So Babcock's design is up:

    Arrowhead 120 DIGITAL.pdf

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  7. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    So Babcock's design is up:

    Arrowhead 120 DIGITAL.pdf
    Did anyone else notice that the dimensions are exactly what was sought in the original EPV RFP?
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  9. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Did anyone else notice that the dimensions are exactly what was sought in the original EPV RFP?
    10 metres shorter

  10. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    So 40 plus years ago? It does amaze me when you see the Meko's around the place and the French designs as well, just how the UK gave up such an export market?
    They didn't. They flooded the market with their own cast offs, unintentionally but all the frigate types sold like hotcakes when they came on the market up to recently when the Type 22s became too outdated to sell.

    Modular warships haven't come on stream until about 15 years ago . This is not the first outing the RN have had with a 'new frigate' concept. They bogged themselves down for a bout 5 years in a multi nation thing that came to nothing, in the mean time spent the whole budget on 6 destroyers, cue a recession, and spend 20 years worth of money on two aircraft carriers and then expect to have money for frigates, while the defence budget is being pissed away in never ending wars..

    When you are down to 19 serviceable surface units, you will build from desperation, hence the requirement to build , fast and relatively cheap and not worry about export options.
    Time for another break I think......

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  12. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Did anyone else notice that the dimensions are exactly what was sought in the original EPV RFP?
    *grabs crayons*

    Ahem, I present an EPV concept acceptable to DoD.



    (damn, left the ESM mast on... as if)
    Last edited by pym; 7th September 2017 at 22:56.

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  14. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by pym View Post
    *grabs crayons*

    Ahem, I present an EPV concept acceptable to DoD.
    Look lets just tell them somebody else has done the hard work and it's a bargain...
    Seriously though, would it be able to meet the EPV/MRV hole?

  15. #261
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    RE: So a RN image of the 31e:
    http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/-/media/...1.pdf?la=en-gb ...

    The above drawings/spec.s mention a close in weapons system/ point defence missile system suitable for expected attack in a constabulary role,.. is this a reference to fighting off attacks from illegal EU fishing boats? (post-Brexit world?!)

    Also, if 2023 is the in-service date, and thinking jobs and development risk,.. it would almost be tempting to say that once the Appledore shipyard was finished building the NS vessel the summer of 2018, that the British Government could order another one for themselves...to be used from c.2020 as a working test-bed (and/or training vessel) for the Type 31e equipment, etc., which at that point would be nearing the end of their design phase and/or starting construction?
    Last edited by WhingeNot; 8th September 2017 at 01:01.

  16. #262
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    When P64 is handed over, where do we consider that our MRV/EPV might be built giving that Bideford might be constrained to building ships larger than P64? The British yards will be concentrating on Type 26 and Type 31E. The Outline Specification of our needs comes first with endurance and environment of operations stated including weapon and other outfits. I think now is the time to include 30mm guns as secondary armament to extend surface reach to around 3000meters to deal with FAC's. Most hulls can be adapted once they have width and length but there are redesign costs.

  17. #263
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    I think our options would be greater once we stop limiting ourselves to british yards. Appledore kept us waiting while they completed insignificant sections of the RN carriers.
    There is a whole range of German, Dutch, French, Spanish or even Italian yards that are just as easy to get to for NS supervision as Appledore(Which is in possibly the most inaccessable part of the UK coming from Cork).
    Hopefully brexit will rule that out. The P60s have been built to the absolute maximum appledore can accomodate, and they need to fit the mast outdoors, while the ship sits on the shingle. This has proven to be most unsatisfactory.
    Continental yards can do the same work quicker and cheaper, as the subcontractors and suppliers don't have to factor in the cost of flights or ferries to get major equipment modules to the build location. Everything european made can be delivered to the yard by road/rail. Appledore is only barely accessable by road to suppliers based in the UK!
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  19. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    I think our options would be greater once we stop limiting ourselves to british yards. Appledore kept us waiting while they completed insignificant sections of the RN carriers.
    There is a whole range of German, Dutch, French, Spanish or even Italian yards that are just as easy to get to for NS supervision as Appledore(Which is in possibly the most inaccessable part of the UK coming from Cork).
    Hopefully brexit will rule that out. The P60s have been built to the absolute maximum appledore can accomodate, and they need to fit the mast outdoors, while the ship sits on the shingle. This has proven to be most unsatisfactory.
    Continental yards can do the same work quicker and cheaper, as the subcontractors and suppliers don't have to factor in the cost of flights or ferries to get major equipment modules to the build location. Everything european made can be delivered to the yard by road/rail. Appledore is only barely accessable by road to suppliers based in the UK!
    Just a technical point, didn't the Appledore yard handle the Scott? That's 130m and 13000 tons?

  20. #265
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    Not forgetting the effect of sterling

  21. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Just a technical point, didn't the Appledore yard handle the Scott? That's 130m and 13000 tons?
    Must have added the superstructure outdoors.
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  22. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Must have added the superstructure outdoors.
    Must have, though they were able to build up to 130m in the hall I guess, anyway it's kind of irrelevant given that even the Babcock design wins it's going to be "block assembled" with final work done in Scotland (most likely after PoW leaves the dock).

  23. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Must have, though they were able to build up to 130m in the hall I guess, anyway it's kind of irrelevant given that even the Babcock design wins it's going to be "block assembled" with final work done in Scotland (most likely after PoW leaves the dock).
    It is certain that at Scotts light Draft, she was deeper than the P60's,and would therefore have sat in the mud, twice a day, for the length of her stay at Appledore.If I remember rightly she had propulsion problems in her early days , not unlike our own experiences.

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  26. #270
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    A fair view of the situation I suppose, particularly if the 250 million price tag is being kept down by swapping out 23 hardware...

  27. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    A fair view of the situation I suppose, particularly if the 250 million price tag is being kept down by swapping out 23 hardware...
    The problem that western navies face is that there is no credible opposition in the north atlantic. The Russian navy is a pale shadow of what it once was and there is a technological lead that can never be overcome.

    Hence the Brits are doing what others have done, fewer high end units mostly built to maintain national industrial capability and light end units like the type 31 which can deal with the day to day tasks like piracy off west Africa etc.

  28. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    The problem that western navies face is that there is no credible opposition in the north atlantic. The Russian navy is a pale shadow of what it once was and there is a technological lead that can never be overcome.

    Hence the Brits are doing what others have done, fewer high end units mostly built to maintain national industrial capability and light end units like the type 31 which can deal with the day to day tasks like piracy off west Africa etc.
    While it's certainly true that the Russian navy isn't what it was (and is unlikely to return to that), you do have to balance that with the fact that the UK (and RN) have been actively talking up moving towards the Indian/Pacific Ocean area post Brexit as well, at which point you run into a PLAN force that is growing in both numbers and tech. The other issue of course is with the ease of getting weapons now, just how much a "light unit" can do with out is open for question now (risks of Anti ship missiles, suicide boats, potentially cheap mines).

    Course the other fact that comes to my mind is that even if this "bare bones" Type 31 does end up at 250m a unit, what will the MRV end up as?

  29. #273
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    Well this was utterly predictable:
    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/t...ge-805668.html

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  31. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Horgan is totally full of it. They've been doing it for years the CASA were sent to the US as part if a sales drive for the USCG in the 1990's.

    Those of us old enough to remember might recall a very prominent person in Irish society who when an officer used to wait up late in the Curragh to make sure nobody was watching BBC at the emd of service in case the national anthem would be played. Thankfully those days are long past but there are some like Rodger "No british Queen in the city of 16" Cole who continue to live in the past.
    Last edited by paul g; 12th September 2017 at 20:52.

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  33. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    The problem that western navies face is that there is no credible opposition in the north atlantic. The Russian navy is a pale shadow of what it once was and there is a technological lead that can never be overcome.

    Hence the Brits are doing what others have done, fewer high end units mostly built to maintain national industrial capability and light end units like the type 31 which can deal with the day to day tasks like piracy off west Africa etc.
    Untrue, the Russian submarine force is about to become more effective that it ever has been a new class of Frigate / Corvettes under construction and a huge modernisation plan across the board.

    Within a few years the Russian Navy will be the dominant force in the North Atlantic.
    Time for another break I think......

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