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  • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
    A fair view of the situation I suppose, particularly if the 250 million price tag is being kept down by swapping out 23 hardware...
    The problem that western navies face is that there is no credible opposition in the north atlantic. The Russian navy is a pale shadow of what it once was and there is a technological lead that can never be overcome.

    Hence the Brits are doing what others have done, fewer high end units mostly built to maintain national industrial capability and light end units like the type 31 which can deal with the day to day tasks like piracy off west Africa etc.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by paul g View Post
      The problem that western navies face is that there is no credible opposition in the north atlantic. The Russian navy is a pale shadow of what it once was and there is a technological lead that can never be overcome.

      Hence the Brits are doing what others have done, fewer high end units mostly built to maintain national industrial capability and light end units like the type 31 which can deal with the day to day tasks like piracy off west Africa etc.
      While it's certainly true that the Russian navy isn't what it was (and is unlikely to return to that), you do have to balance that with the fact that the UK (and RN) have been actively talking up moving towards the Indian/Pacific Ocean area post Brexit as well, at which point you run into a PLAN force that is growing in both numbers and tech. The other issue of course is with the ease of getting weapons now, just how much a "light unit" can do with out is open for question now (risks of Anti ship missiles, suicide boats, potentially cheap mines).

      Course the other fact that comes to my mind is that even if this "bare bones" Type 31 does end up at 250m a unit, what will the MRV end up as?

      Comment


      • Well this was utterly predictable:

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
          Horgan is totally full of it. They've been doing it for years the CASA were sent to the US as part if a sales drive for the USCG in the 1990's.

          Those of us old enough to remember might recall a very prominent person in Irish society who when an officer used to wait up late in the Curragh to make sure nobody was watching BBC at the emd of service in case the national anthem would be played. Thankfully those days are long past but there are some like Rodger "No british Queen in the city of 16" Cole who continue to live in the past.
          Last edited by paul g; 12 September 2017, 21:52.

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          • Originally posted by paul g View Post
            The problem that western navies face is that there is no credible opposition in the north atlantic. The Russian navy is a pale shadow of what it once was and there is a technological lead that can never be overcome.

            Hence the Brits are doing what others have done, fewer high end units mostly built to maintain national industrial capability and light end units like the type 31 which can deal with the day to day tasks like piracy off west Africa etc.
            Untrue, the Russian submarine force is about to become more effective that it ever has been a new class of Frigate / Corvettes under construction and a huge modernisation plan across the board.

            Within a few years the Russian Navy will be the dominant force in the North Atlantic.
            Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

            Comment


            • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
              Untrue, the Russian submarine force is about to become more effective that it ever has been a new class of Frigate / Corvettes under construction and a huge modernisation plan across the board.

              Within a few years the Russian Navy will be the dominant force in the North Atlantic.
              Really?
              Have they managed to replace the Ukrainian Powerplants/gearboxes for their surface ships yet? As to more subs, perhaps, perhaps not and either way they will still be a far smaller force than the Cold War. And that presumes that Russia can sustain it's military spending, given the economic issues it has, and the continued industrial issues, added to which with the NATO nations moving towards the 2% making them even more outnumbered.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                Really?
                Have they managed to replace the Ukrainian Powerplants/gearboxes for their surface ships yet? As to more subs, perhaps, perhaps not and either way they will still be a far smaller force than the Cold War. And that presumes that Russia can sustain it's military spending, given the economic issues it has, and the continued industrial issues, added to which with the NATO nations moving towards the 2% making them even more outnumbered.
                Another question is will the PLAN increase its operational tempo in the Atlantic/Med?..

                Comment


                • Horgan, Is this the lad who made the grand jester for peace, by handing back his medals, uniform, but held on to the pension book.
                  The same looper who was minutes away from getting himself into the Guinness books of records for being the first OnE officer to order a bayonet charge during the Ballsbridge embassy riots.
                  The same plonker who recommended only arming the Mowags with a point five
                  Last edited by sofa; 13 September 2017, 00:09.

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                  • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                    Untrue, the Russian submarine force is about to become more effective that it ever has been a new class of Frigate / Corvettes under construction and a huge modernisation plan across the board.

                    Within a few years the Russian Navy will be the dominant force in the North Atlantic.
                    .... until the USS South Dakota and its Block IV Virginia friends arrive. The USN is already developing "4th" generation subs with the Ohio replacement.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                      While it's certainly true that the Russian navy isn't what it was (and is unlikely to return to that), you do have to balance that with the fact that the UK (and RN) have been actively talking up moving towards the Indian/Pacific Ocean area post Brexit as well, at which point you run into a PLAN force that is growing in both numbers and tech. The other issue of course is with the ease of getting weapons now, just how much a "light unit" can do with out is open for question now (risks of Anti ship missiles, suicide boats, potentially cheap mines).

                      Course the other fact that comes to my mind is that even if this "bare bones" Type 31 does end up at 250m a unit, what will the MRV end up as?
                      As anybody who has read the newspapers in the last year will know the Brits are totally delusional about post March 2019, they can't sustain operations in the Pacific, that's why they retreated east of suez in the 1960s.

                      Going back to the arrowhead, when the MRV Comes on stream it will be different from what they planned in when they tendered for the epv back in 2007, it might very well be the LE brexit class as it will have to reflect the political situation, where the EU will have deepened its crisis management capabilities, and Ireland will have to contribute capabilities at sea, (after all we are an island).

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Anzac View Post
                        .... until the USS South Dakota and its Block IV Virginia friends arrive. The USN is already developing "4th" generation subs with the Ohio replacement.
                        The USN is so stuck for Frigates at the moment they are considering recommissioning Oliver Hazard Perry Class frigates

                        The USN is already developing "4th" generation subs with the Ohio replacement.
                        The Russians have another Typhoon back in the water, this out weights all the RN missile boats.

                        Another question is will the PLAN increase its operational tempo in the Atlantic/Med?
                        ..

                        They have one carrier in the water with limited potential, but they well have another one within 3 months , the Russians and the Chinese are back on talking terms about ship builds etc. so watch this space.

                        be a far smaller force than the Cold War.
                        Bigger doesn't mean better,

                        Have they managed to replace the Ukrainian Powerplants/gearboxes for their surface ships yet?
                        As I said, Chinese and Russian relations could be the solution to this.

                        And that presumes that Russia can sustain it's military spending, given the economic issues it has, and the continued industrial issues,
                        As longer as Europe needs what Russia exports in the form of Gas and oil they can and will. Putin will not allow the navy to fall back to the place it was again.
                        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                          The USN is so stuck for Frigates at the moment they are considering recommissioning Oliver Hazard Perry Class frigates



                          The Russians have another Typhoon back in the water, this out weights all the RN missile boats.

                          ..

                          They have one carrier in the water with limited potential, but they well have another one within 3 months , the Russians and the Chinese are back on talking terms about ship builds etc. so watch this space.



                          Bigger doesn't mean better,



                          As I said, Chinese and Russian relations could be the solution to this.



                          As longer as Europe needs what Russia exports in the form of Gas and oil they can and will. Putin will not allow the navy to fall back to the place it was again.
                          The US always keeps old hardware , including Naval and key Merchant Ships , in a floating reserve , to cover global exigencies. We remember the BB's being used in the Vietnam war. I would be worried about the Russo/Chinese hand holding as both countries are anxious to see US influence withdrawn from the Korean Peninsula, Japan, Guam etc. The PRK Nuclear/Missile developments probably pleases Putin and Mr. Ping as reasons why they should go home.
                          The PLAN future includes building up to 6 Aircraft Carriers which has to have Global aspirations as a reason. It follows that all Powers will maintain balance or superiority by New Builds.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                            The USN is so stuck for Frigates at the moment they are considering recommissioning Oliver Hazard Perry Class frigates
                            No they are looking at the Perry's because Trump has announced that they are going back up to a 300 hull plus navy and they know that they can't meet that with the US shipbuilding (and because the LCS's turned out to be the utter disaster many predicted). Whether or not some of them actually end up being reactivated is another question entirely. I mean there's also a suggestion of bringing the Kitty Hawk back into service even though a) her material state is "utter shite" and b) the USN doesn't have the Carrier Wings to deploy. But whatever the man child wants.

                            The Russians have another Typhoon back in the water, this out weights all the RN missile boats.
                            And? Forgive me if I'm not overly concerned about a Cold War hull being reactivated for a limited period until it's reactors need to be shut down (more over it's an SSBN, they weren't the threat to the North Atlantic in the Cold War), the Russian ability to replace their SSN/SSBN hulls is not anything like what it once was and at this stage most are at least 1 generation behind the USN/RN SSNs (and arguable France once their new SSN's get built)

                            As I said, Chinese and Russian relations could be the solution to this.
                            Yes it could, however that assumes that Russia will be happy ending up as China's pawn, which given the disparity is the only way Sino-Russian relations will end up.

                            As longer as Europe needs what Russia exports in the form of Gas and oil they can and will. Putin will not allow the navy to fall back to the place it was again.
                            You are aware of the actual size of the Russian economy right? As in behind Italy, internally it has massive issues (from burning through Foreign Reserves, to runs on Banks, to massive shortages and cuts), even with selling petro chemicals to Europe, there's a finite level of investment they can afford to make. If by 2025 the EU NATO nations hit the 2% spending, Russia can forget about staying level (hell Germany alone will out spend Russia if it went to 2%). Already the Russian Finance/Defence Departments have made clear that the defence spending needs to be cut post 2020. And that doesn't even get into the Vapourware that Russia announces all the time, I mean by now from Vlads statements they should have parity with the USN in CVN's and yet that hasn't happened, they plan for a new Strategic Stealth bomber by mid 2020's even with the limitations they have (so not likely to happen), the Space Program is denying a death with massive issues...

                            That doesn't mean they aren't capable of offence actions and going after weak points that have developed in NATO doctrine, but I don't see them being in a position to threaten the North Atlantic in any serious shape compared to the Cold War.
                            Last edited by Sparky42; 13 September 2017, 14:38.

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                            • Originally posted by paul g View Post
                              As anybody who has read the newspapers in the last year will know the Brits are totally delusional about post March 2019, they can't sustain operations in the Pacific, that's why they retreated east of suez in the 1960s.

                              Going back to the arrowhead, when the MRV Comes on stream it will be different from what they planned in when they tendered for the epv back in 2007, it might very well be the LE brexit class as it will have to reflect the political situation, where the EU will have deepened its crisis management capabilities, and Ireland will have to contribute capabilities at sea, (after all we are an island).
                              And delusions haven't resulted in military actions/deployments before?

                              In terms of the MRV and any future EU plans, if that were the case as I've argued before we should actually be engaging with the others to figure out what we can bring to the table, however I can't shake the feeling that instead we are going to end up with something along the "Light Frigate" one of replacement for Eithne that doesn't really add much to either our capabilities or any joint operations.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                                The USN is so stuck for Frigates at the moment they are considering recommissioning Oliver Hazard Perry Class frigates

                                The Russians have another Typhoon back in the water, this out weights all the RN missile boats.
                                I do disagree with your claim that in a few years the Russians will dominate the North Atlantic and the reply above does not deal with the fact that Block IV Virginias and Columbia's are literally 1-2 generations ahead in acoustic and electromagnetic management than Typhoon/Borei and Akula/Yasen's - let alone the fact that the Russian's have nothing remotely as capable as P-8A nor the four CARSTRKGRU based out of Norfolk. The North Atlantic is an USN Lake and that is unlikely to be changed whatever you may hear on RT or read in Sputnik news.

                                The possible OHP recall is just eight vessels and they are not needed or wanted in the North Atlantic. It will be an interim measure and what is likely is that FFG(X) will emerge as an intermediate size surface combatant as outlined here:



                                Another export rival to the Type 31 / Type 26

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